?

Log in

No account? Create an account
A couple more notes on HBP (okay, a page and a half of notes -… - withpaperwings_
July 19th, 2005 03:44 pm
A couple more notes on HBP (okay, a page and a half of notes - spanning about a chapter of HBP!)



So, I thought last night it's not that straight forward - Snape can't have just killed Dumbledore for Malfoy's sake. There must be something else. So I skipped back, to page 542 [Australian/UK version], where Dumbledore is struggling through Hogsmeade with Harry, and they're about to meet Rosmerta.

Harry says the need to get up to the castle, that Madame Pomfrey can help Dumbledore. Dumbledore says "It is Professor Snape I need", and we assume that it's because, well, he's got awesome powers [DUH]. But, are we to assume that he can tell what a potion is just by looking at the taker? It's happened in the past, hasn't it? Again, Dumbledore presses for Snape ("I need Severus..." pg542), and again we're just supposed to assume he'll know what it is.

Before the Death Eaters arrive, Dumbledore tells Harry to "Go wake Severus, tell him what has happened + bring him to me. Do nothing else, speak to nobody else + do not remove your cloak." (pg545) Dumbledore's either trying to get him out of the way, or he's sure Snape will know what's up.

So, if he does know what it is by looking at Dumbledore, up at the tower wouldn't he also know? Is Dumbledore really that misguided to think he has that much time before they are found at the Tower? Or does he overestimate his strength?

-

Another couple of notes: Malfoy didn't know Snape was awake, so we can assume none of the other death eaters did. Hermione went to wake him up [is this right?]. However, Snape took a long time getting up after the Death Eaters, especially when he didn't need to have fought them, and when the Order thought he was on their side, so he didn't have to fight them either.

*cough* My argument was a lot sounder last night...

So. Moving on to the actual scene. Snape gets through the barrier, and looks around at everyone. Remember when in the first book he reaches out to Harry in his invisibility cloak? And when he gets his leg stuck in the stair? I reckon Dumbledore told him about the cloak, or he knows about it somehow. Snape must have realised - one look at Dumbledore would tell you he's dying [slipping down the rampant etc] - someone else was up there, and who else would Dumbledore trust to take with him when they went out? I mean, he'd just seen most of the Order downstairs, and if HP was around, he'd be in the thick of it, battling off six death eaters. Instead, he's nowhere to be found, and there are two brooms with Dumbledore.

Also, remember how Harry could never close his mind to Snape? Perhaps he probed around and "felt" Harry's mind? that's a bit iffy.

So, then, he knows Harry's there. Or he thinks he is. But Snape can't say anything because obviously, he's surrounded by Death Eaters. He's known since the beginning that he knew what Draco was supposed to do [Kill Dumbledore], and we've known he's promised to do it since the second chapter. I can't quite remember right now, but he was quite definite about it. Anyway, so he's realised what he has to do, and you know, maybe he doesn't like Dumbledore, sure. But still, this man has defended him for the past, what, 17 years, and he's trusted him. I think it's fair to say that Snape doesn't hate him.

Dumbledore pleads. We aren't told what about, which makes me wonder whether they've been conversing secretly (MIND!TRIKS!), or if it's just because HI HE'S OBVIOUSLY DYING ALREADY. Kind of like the mercy shot in Joan of Arc. That's what I thought at first, and that's nice, yeah? Saving your friend from a fricking long death, yeah? So, yeah, they gaze at each other, could be more Occu...whatever, or they could just be, you know, normal mind talking. Like you or I do, it's very obvious to read people's faces and eyes sometimes.

Snape has no hangups about using Avada K..., obviously, for he doesn't stutter during the word, and he doesn't shudder or any of that. They're obviously old friends, him and the spell. He hesitates, however.

-

Snape protects Draco - even though Draco hates him for trying to "steal" the spotlight (around pg540), Snape is probably losing his patience with Draco by now (remember the Christmas party?). He has sworn to protect him from harm - if he can (pg 41), and we can assume that this "harm" could extend to killing someone? His soul would split. That's harm.

The only emotion Snape actually shows, throughout the whole killing sequence, is on pg562, when Harry calls him a coward -> why? pg564. It's really odd. I mean, why bother being called a coward if you've just killed a man who sheltered you for 17 years? And if you're on the run from the Order? Surely you'd just laugh and get away, and then you'd plan your revenge. But, my idea from it all is that he's good, and so being called a coward when he's just committed the bravest act he's ever had, is very painful. I think that's the reason he turned around.

All in all, the way Snape stops and talks to Harry when he's leaving is odd - it explains the story, yes, but it's not a very "baddie" thing to do. Go away, and then gloat. Or get another character to explain. She didn't NEED Snape to explain that, except to give him that hesitation time.

Whatever. Maybe that's just all dribble. XD

awake is the new:: restless restless
playing through the inflight radio:: We're Dancing // Mandy Moore

Leave a comment27CommentReply

sexuelle
sexuelle
sexuelle
July 18th, 2005 11:30 pm (UTC)

I so long for Snape to be a villian, or yearn even.

I think Snape turned at being called a coward because he's always been called that. Remember the flood of memories of his that were so awful and pity-inducing that Harry saw during their Occlumens lesson?

I'm really not sure.

I do wonder why Dumbledore only wanted Snape, at the time I was reading it, it made more sense than it does now when I think about it.


ReplyThread
withpaperwings_
withpaperwings_
(the girl)
July 18th, 2005 11:51 pm (UTC)

I guess that's a reasonable theory too. I just don't think he's the kind of person that would bother with it at the time, you know? He seems the type to go back to his room and plot revenge with a slow boiled potion, or find a spell or something. Nothing rash.

Yeah, Dumbly wanting only Snape was weirding me out. I don't know. =/


ReplyThread Parent
sound_life
うさぎ ♥
July 18th, 2005 11:35 pm (UTC)

this made the 'dumbledore calling for snape' thng a little clearer, true or not. it made me think a little more atleast.

personally, i hate the thought of snape going 100% bad.


ReplyThread
fakinghome
fakinghome
writer of fictions.
July 18th, 2005 11:44 pm (UTC)

Really? Yay! I just thought it made sense, a little.
Me too! He must be good! Dumbledore isn't stupid!


ReplyThread Parent
regina
regina
I like your lizard picture.
July 18th, 2005 11:48 pm (UTC)
sorry for the name switching...

I just think it'd be an interesting twist, that's all. The whole he triple crossed them aspect. It's something that happens in real life. If it's right, that'd mean that Dumbledore was blinded where he was concerned, at least to a certain extent. =/


ReplyThread Parent
withpaperwings_
withpaperwings_
(the girl)
July 18th, 2005 11:49 pm (UTC)
Re: sorry for the name switching...

I name switched too :)
But yeah, triple crossing is cool, but...no. :( DUMBLY!


ReplyThread Parent
regina
regina
I like your lizard picture.
July 18th, 2005 11:51 pm (UTC)
Re: sorry for the name switching...

Awww, I know! It's sad either way... =(


ReplyThread Parent
born2mugglz
born2mugglz
born2mugglz
July 18th, 2005 11:42 pm (UTC)

if you aren't right i will be utterly depressed and cry. lmao. Good thing we wont know till the seventh book and by then something will have happened to where it doesnt matter anymore. hahaha.


ReplyThread
withpaperwings_
withpaperwings_
(the girl)
July 18th, 2005 11:47 pm (UTC)

I want Snape to be good, but yeah, I agree.
And then we'll care for ages. :D


ReplyThread Parent
born2mugglz
born2mugglz
born2mugglz
July 19th, 2005 12:17 am (UTC)

exactly. 0_0

Urgh. K, so I got the audio version and was just listening and was like "woah!!!"

ok here...

"Snape said nothing, but walked forward and pushed Malfoy roughly out of the way...Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face.
'Severus...please...'
Snape raised his wand and pointed it at Dumbledore.
'Avada Kedavra!'"

Ok. So here's where this theory works! Dumbledore says "Severus..Please". Snape walks and pushes Malfoy out of the way. They stare at eachother for a moment. Snape gets a look of revulsion and hatred on his face. Once again Dumbledore says "Severus...please...". And Snape says the killing curse.

Its as if the look of revulsion and hatred was because DD was asking him to kill him! And once DD repeats his plea, Snape complies. They HAD to have communicated with their minds and Snape told him no and got revolted by the thought and then DD begs him again so he does it.

YEY. omg. I hope so. lol. Remember..."Death is but the next great adventure". And DD said even in HBP something like People fear death because of the unknown not because of dying and yada yada. He would NEVER ask for his life from someone. He'd ask for his death though....


hehe. XP


ReplyThread Parent
sound_life
うさぎ ♥
July 19th, 2005 12:42 am (UTC)

yes!


ReplyThread Parent
messyxjessy
messyxjessy
Jessica
July 19th, 2005 12:55 am (UTC)

exactly! i was about to say something very similar.

ON A SIDE NOTE: When Harry is chasing after Snape, and the other Death Eaters try to kill Harry, Snape yells "NO! Potter belongs to the Dark Lord!" And while this is true, Voldemort wants to be the one to kill Harry, Snape is in the thick of a huge heated arguement with a boy who wants to kill him and has done nothing but despise him in the past, and yet he still prevents the other Death Eaters from killing him. I mean, it's never bothered any of the other Death Eaters. In fact, Crouch Jr. thought that it would make Voldemort ecstatic if he (crouch) killed Harry himself. So Snape was still trying to protect Harry.

Anyway, this is way to obvious for Jo. Snape is much more than a double crosser.


ReplyThread Parent
withpaperwings_
withpaperwings_
(the girl)
July 19th, 2005 05:27 am (UTC)

I thought it was a bit odd that Snape did that, but then I didn't think any further. Perhaps you're right, because surely dead Harry is awesome Harry in Voldemort's eyes? Who says anyone [ie the press] has to know it WASN'T him? He can just kill all the people who saw and say it was him.
Sigh :D

It is MUCH too obvious to just be true. There has to be a twist *crosses fingers*


ReplyThread Parent
withpaperwings_
withpaperwings_
(the girl)
July 19th, 2005 05:25 am (UTC)

Yeah, I think you're right. Because they can both "talk" in each others minds, and Draco wouldn't be good enough yet, Harry can't do [thus we don't know], and I doubt Voldemort would send his best Death Eaters into battle. They probably wouldn't know how to do it either, would they?

Dumbly=the cool.


ReplyThread Parent
born2mugglz
born2mugglz
born2mugglz
July 19th, 2005 10:08 am (UTC)

LMAO. Dumbly.

OMG im not resting until we fully chew this theory up and spit it out. Its the only way I can stay undepressed. I need to re-read the book fully and grab any hints or clues that could support this. hehe.


ReplyThread Parent
kashmirdreamer
kashmirdreamer
nora rose
July 19th, 2005 06:18 am (UTC)

squee for not making snape a complete evil villian.


ReplyThread
ccangel42
ccangel42
Two Steps Behind
July 19th, 2005 07:00 am (UTC)

the hope in believing this theory is possibly the only thing that will get me to read book 7 and not turn into a death eater and go after JKR.

...please please let what you say be right.

however...we have a torturous 2 years to wait for the next book.


ReplyThread
canadiangirl16
heatherbear
July 19th, 2005 07:03 am (UTC)

I was SO angered with Snape when I read the book the first time (just because I've always been so attached to Dumbledore). Then, I re-read part of the book (toward the end) and was starting to second-guess Snape's involvement with the Death Eaters. I really don't know what to think; I want to know that he's guilty, but at the same time, part of me thinks he's innocent. Sigh.


ReplyThread
toyworld
toyworld
Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds
July 19th, 2005 07:45 am (UTC)

Yeah I was thinking that! Snape was one of my favourite characters and I always had a soft spot for him, so I felt kind of shocked that he just killed Dumbledore with such ease. but that's a good theory I like it and makes me feel a little easier about loving Snape. hehe


ReplyThread
angelich
angelich
heather
July 19th, 2005 11:29 am (UTC)

I think you're onto a lot of stuff. I mean, I really need to go back and read the book over again cause I mean, there's gotta be hints all over the place. I agree with the Snape coward thing, I agree with the Dumble/Snape secret convo...

But then again, there's the whole nagging Unbreakable Vow thing... I mean no matter what, Snape would have to follow through cause Draco couldn't.

Ugh... if only I wasn't at work, then I'd be able to just grab my book and figure it out!


ReplyThread
engastrimyth
engastrimyth
SUPER COMRADE
July 19th, 2005 03:45 pm (UTC)

It never appears to me that Snape kills Dumbledore for Malfoy’s sake. I don’t believe Draco was under an Unbreakable Vow to kill Dumbledore (otherwise he would have died when Snape did so instead) but rather under the threat of death. Snape, on the other hand, was. If he hadn’t killed Dumbledore, he, Snape, would have died instantly. It was an act of necessity.

Dumbledore repeatedly asking for Snape came off slightly differently, to me: firstly, Snape is presented to us as the best potions maker in the series. Dumbledore was certainly dying; I still think Snape could have healed him. Secondly, Dumbledore asks for Snape because he needs information. When your castle is invaded by Death Eaters, you’re going to want to ask your insider what’s going on, who’s here, why they’re here etc.

I think you are correct that Snape most likely is aware of Harry’s presence, however.

The problem I have is that an Unforgivable spell is, according to Bellatrix, powered by hatred. You have to have the will to inflict something horrible upon someone else. (I don’t recall the exact wording.) And Snape does, in fact, show emotion during the killing sequence: his face “suffuses with loathing” or something to that effect (alas, I have no copy with me).

And chatting to the hero about your plans and how mad and awesome you are is a very “baddie” thing to do ^_^. See also: graveyard scene in GoF starring Voldemort the Chatty Bitch.


Man, this comment is awful. That’s learn me to try and think right before uni.


ReplyThread
sekihidama
sekihidama
Michelle
July 19th, 2005 06:11 pm (UTC)

One thing that my sisters and I noticed when we were reading: Snape is always enjoying to torture someone / something. Think of Harry's detentions, his look of satisfaction after doing something wicked to Gryffindor. Sure, it might just be the rivalry, but he is always happy and satisfied with himself after he has done something that would cause others to suffer because of that twisted sense in him, being the complex character that he is.

In the book, JK Rowling wrote that Snape did NOT have a satisfied look on his face, but of one with a lot of anger. My sisters and I, and maybe others, think that Snape was upset at HIMSELF for having to kill Dumbledore, but not on Voldemort's orders, but maybe something Dumbledore and Snape had promised to one another.

The book mentioned in that wonderful first scene with Snape that he "knew" the plan Voldemort had for Draco, but then later when he is confronting Draco, he actually had no idea what it was. Throughout the book, it is really likely that almost everything he was doing wasn't with Voldemort's orders at all, but with Dumbledore's and his final wishes before he was forced to kill him.

Also, when Harry was running toward him using his own jynxes and hexes: If Snape really did work for the Dark Lord, why didn't he stun Harry, knowing that he was much more powerful than this 16 year old boy, and then take him to the Dark Lord himself? He would have shown obvious favoritism and joy with Snape if he had sent Voldemort the ONE thing that he wished to have most from his 16 years of trying to kill him. 16 years, or whatever you want to look at it, at least.

But maybe he was so hot-tempered when Harry called him a coward because he had JUST killed the most powerful GOOD wizard in the entire wizarding world, but was called a coward for it. Harry said he was a coward for not realizing that if Snape really was on the other side, his millions of opportunities to kill Harry, Dumbledore, Lupin [book 3 with the potion to help sustain his werewolf-ness], and all of the others that he was close to for all those 6 years. Snape might have felt that he had done the bravest thing by making the Order feel that he had chosen sides with the Death Eaters, even though [as I see it] he is a very good guy and wanted to help the Order in any way possible at all.

I think I'm done rambling :[ that was a lot longer than I thought, too.


ReplyThread
allie_oop
allie_oop
let me see you dance on your tippy toes
July 19th, 2005 08:28 pm (UTC)

I think Dumbledore sort of already knew.
I mean, he knew that he had to 'be seen' to be leaving Hogwarts by Madame Rosmerta, and he might have known that only Snape would see that he actually was dying, and would prevent everyone else from trying to save him when they could have been doing more productive things, you know?
Maybe that doesn't make any senes, but he does hesitate before the Unbreakable Vow... meh.


ReplyThread
i__say
i__say
Julie
July 21st, 2005 07:04 pm (UTC)

One of my friends wrote an editorial about this, plus and minus a couple of things. I think it summarizes a lot of what you said pretty well.


ReplyThread
i__say
i__say
Julie
July 21st, 2005 07:06 pm (UTC)

My favorite part of yours, though, was how you explained Snape gettin upset and being called a coward. It makes sense!


ReplyThread Parent
i__say
i__say
Julie
July 21st, 2005 07:06 pm (UTC)
Three!

*getting. Guh.


ReplyThread Parent
ses__06
bandelero
August 18th, 2005 07:55 pm (UTC)
sorry if this is really random/late

my friends and i have a theory that snape really is on dumbeldore's side--

when dumbledore was dying on the ground, he knew that harry needed to be under the cloak and not do anything stupid, bc he is the one who needs to defeat voldemort. so dumbeldore knew he would have to be sacraficed. When dumbeldore was "pleading" with snape, i think he was really pleading with snape to kill him. Dumbledore and snape were (in my theory) exchanging thoughts, bc snape is all about occlumency. Snape made the unbreakable oath originally to probably seal in his alliance to voldemort and prove to bellatrix (sp?) that hes a legit death eater, and therefore had more the reason to give in to dumbledore's sacrifice.

just a thought :)


ReplyThread