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How Come It Is Never Joss' Fault - Dumbarton Gal
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How Come It Is Never Joss' Fault
I appear to be on an ism day today, maybe an indication of my bad mood.

Gacked from sueworld2003, who in turn gacked from Whedonesque, The Scapegoating of Female Creators in Pop Culture....

The scapegoating of female creators

So what did you think about Mari Noxon taking over, what are your thoughts on Sera Gambol taking over Supernatural? Is there a difference between how a woman handles a show compared to a man? What are your feelings on how the women involved in the creative processes are treated when compared to the men?

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lifefailsme From: lifefailsme Date: June 15th, 2010 06:51 pm (UTC) (Link)
This article sickened me. It's 2010 for f's sake!
woman_of_ From: woman_of_ Date: June 15th, 2010 07:54 pm (UTC) (Link)
Yes. Sadly, women are often the biggest critics of other women.
lifefailsme From: lifefailsme Date: June 16th, 2010 05:38 am (UTC) (Link)
Yeah, I just dont get that at all you know. *sigh*
woman_of_ From: woman_of_ Date: June 16th, 2010 07:58 am (UTC) (Link)
Neither do I. I have gave it a thought or two. I suspect that men learn to work together in groups more than women. Such as football teams. While women find themselves in family groups, competing with other women for family survival.

All the way back to the hunter gatherer mindset.
lifefailsme From: lifefailsme Date: June 16th, 2010 08:49 am (UTC) (Link)
I think you have that spot on actually!
rua1412 From: rua1412 Date: June 15th, 2010 07:49 pm (UTC) (Link)
If they don't turn out the shows in soap operas (Spuffy), the women do a lot of better job in giving deepness to the characters for me.
woman_of_ From: woman_of_ Date: June 15th, 2010 07:56 pm (UTC) (Link)
I can see that, but she did make some interesting points in other directions, and was not affraid to take on some dark subject matters. It didn't always work, but did lead to a new direction for the show.
goldenusagi From: goldenusagi Date: June 15th, 2010 08:13 pm (UTC) (Link)
I don't have anything against Sera or Marti personally. (I don't like Buffy season 6, and obviously I don't know about SPN S6 yet.) But I think when anyone takes over from the creator, the show is going to go in a different direction. Intevitably, it's a direction some fans won't like.

I don't think there's a difference between how a woman handles a show. But there will always be differences between how people handle shows. It's different when you're developing the show yourself (whether you're a woman or a man), and when you're stepping in to someone else's shoes.
love_jackianto From: love_jackianto Date: June 15th, 2010 08:19 pm (UTC) (Link)
I've been trying to write a comment to this post but I think you hit nail on the head. It'll be interesting to see where Sera takes the show.
woman_of_ From: woman_of_ Date: June 15th, 2010 08:39 pm (UTC) (Link)
Yes, and I accept that there is a difference in stepping into someone else's shoes, but both Joss and Eric have worked with Marti and Sera long enough that they should have some indications about where they are coming from. If they have handed the reins over to them, they must approve of what they are putting already into the creative mix. They did/have appointed them to the position.
goldenusagi From: goldenusagi Date: June 15th, 2010 09:23 pm (UTC) (Link)
Obviously Marti and Sera had both worked on their respective shows a long time. But I still think that no matter how well they are a creative force in the team, it's still much different than being in charge.
woman_of_ From: woman_of_ Date: June 16th, 2010 12:35 am (UTC) (Link)
She was of course credited with being the creator, but if the fans knew her bias just from her comments boards she interacted with, the Joss must've known even more from working with her.
shipperx From: shipperx Date: June 15th, 2010 10:13 pm (UTC) (Link)
Well, Joss and co. did refer to Marti as "Suicide girl" and "Pains and chains" so I do think they had some idea of her style. But then I've never understood the fandom concept that everything that is good in the Whedonverse is Joss, everything that sucks... isn't. Logic demands that he had a hand in the suckiness too.
woman_of_ From: woman_of_ Date: June 16th, 2010 12:36 am (UTC) (Link)
Yes, he cannot get a free pass. He was given the credit for the show, and should take the ups and downs with it as well.
shipperx From: shipperx Date: June 15th, 2010 10:10 pm (UTC) (Link)
In theory I agree with a lot of this. However, I also have to cringe and reluctantly say Noxon sort of opened herself up for some of the criticism when she was giving all those "I am Buffy" interviews saying "I lived that. I dated vampires but I married an accountant."

So in theory, I think misogyny is part of the problem. But where Noxon is concerned, I don't think it's the only issue in play.

Edited at 2010-06-16 12:52 am (UTC)
woman_of_ From: woman_of_ Date: June 16th, 2010 12:58 am (UTC) (Link)
No, she did leave herself open to a lot of critism from her own actions. Even so, Joss didn't entirely walk away, so he does deserve some of the blame for not reining her in about certian aspects. Then Joss was never adverse to a little (lot of) controverity. I suspect he thought it kept his fandom alive.
gillo From: gillo Date: June 15th, 2010 11:11 pm (UTC) (Link)
And I posted the link on Whedonesque having picked up the link from ruuger on penny_lane_42's LJ; ruuger was temporarily suspended from logging in there - totally not her fault, just caught up in the anti-Spuffy spat in a different thread.

Oh LJ fandom. We are mighty. And remarkably like a spider's web!
woman_of_ From: woman_of_ Date: June 16th, 2010 12:37 am (UTC) (Link)
Oh yes, no matter what, we can get the word out. We are fandom, watch us roar.
yaya_wr8t3r From: yaya_wr8t3r Date: June 17th, 2010 01:16 am (UTC) (Link)
If I'm being honest I would say that Sera is more connected with the angsty, emotional and dramatic parts of Sam and Dean's characters. Where as Eric was more connected to the action, mocho and getting the job done gunhoe parts. I just think with a female writer they aren't afraid to put males in those awkward situations and feel awkward themselves because they did it. That's not to say male writers don't do that, because they do, but I think female writers are more than likely to really put their male characters through that emotional roller coaster and actually relish it ;)

Women have always been more connected and more in tune withe everything and everyone around them, and their not afraid to have those chic flick moments, so when it comes to writing and handling a show we as viewers are guaranteed those elements with female writers, more than with male writers.
woman_of_ From: woman_of_ Date: June 17th, 2010 08:01 am (UTC) (Link)
It could well be the case, and that change of pace in a series can jar some people. That is something that did happen with Marti Noxon, and how dark she went with it as well.
yaya_wr8t3r From: yaya_wr8t3r Date: June 18th, 2010 11:30 pm (UTC) (Link)
I personally can't wait to see what Sera brings :) I've been a fan of hers from the beginning. I also think people shouldn't worry too much, because where Sera won't bring the comedy relief, Ben will ;) So I think we're sitting pretty right now. But I can understand why people feel the way they do right now.
woman_of_ From: woman_of_ Date: June 19th, 2010 12:42 am (UTC) (Link)
Yes, and Ben is excellent at the humour. We could be in for a good season.
From: thatwordgrrl Date: June 17th, 2010 04:43 pm (UTC) (Link)
While I do think randomly heaping all the blame on Noxon is unfair, consider that at least two of the shows she was involved with after Buffy, she was summarily let go because of "creative differences." Which makes me wonder if some of that blame was not a bit fairly earned...

That being said, I completely blame Whedon for the hot steaming mess that was Dollhouse.
woman_of_ From: woman_of_ Date: June 17th, 2010 09:38 pm (UTC) (Link)
Personally I think a better choice would've been Jane Espenson, but I just think she is a really good writer.

Dollhouse was all down to Joss.
From: thatwordgrrl Date: June 18th, 2010 01:01 am (UTC) (Link)
See, NOBODY bags on Espenson because, as you say, she's a *good* writer.

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