smeg_: So uh...anyone know anything about data

Smeg, Esq. (

smeg_) wrote,
@ 2005-12-11 16:21:00

Current mood:	fucking through w/ computers
Current music:	Guilty Gear XX #Reload Korean Version - Dementia
Entry tags:	computers

So uh...anyone know anything about data recovery? :(

See I was just minding my own business an hour ago, leeching ridiculous quantities of copyrighted material via bittorrent like any red-blooded American man, when I tried to launch Firefox and was hit with a barrage of error messages to the effect that each plugin Firefox attempted to load was "corrupted or could not be read". The error messages recommended I run chkdsk immediately, but doing so rewarded me with similar errors. After shutting down (which itself resulted in more disk corruption errors), I attempted to reboot but failed miserably.

So I says to myself, "self, you've got a dusty Win2k installation on that 120 gigger Maxtor in there; why don't you try booting that?" And I did, upon which chkdsk explained that it was very urgent that it scan the Seagate right away. So I let it, not knowing that in chkdsk's language "scan" apparently means "wipe". Now I'm left with 11 GB of data out of what was probably totalling close to 100, a woefully incomplete Win2k installation, and 2.5 GB of "found" *.chk files (gee, thanks a lot chkdsk).

All told, it could be a lot worse. Chkdsk found no bad sectors, and the contents of the Maxtor drive remain unscathed (man am I running some ancient software at the moment though). Much of what was on the Seagate was either transferred from my "temporary" machine which still retains all of that data, or was torrented within the last couple of weeks and can be leeched once more, if I have the patience. The Seagate drive appears to be fully functional, and hasn't given any physical symptoms of failure. If I had to hazard a guess as to what went wrong, I guess a virus wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility - the only source I can think of though would be a warezed copy of Nero, which I tested after installing and seemed to be normally operational. I also had a couple of ports open for p2p functions, but I don't know of any exploit that would allow an attacker that kind of access. I'd like to hear some other ideas though. I'm wary to reinstall on the Seagate till I'm positive that it's stable, virus-free and my lost data has either been recovered or confirmed to be unrecoverable. I guess I'll be trying to update this installation and working with it for the time being.

One last thing that's really bugging me: lately my PC has been requiring me to reset it after powering on before it will POST. After that, it appears otherwise stable and boots fine. It's frighteningly similar to the problems I was having with my last build though, and I didn't start experiencing problems with that till after six months of use. Any ideas, no matter how useless they might seem to you, are appreciated. I'd particularly like to find an accurate, reliable guide to determining PC component power requirements, just in case. Everything I've read on the subject has been vague and unhelpful.

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past_the_mirror
2005-12-12 12:03 am UTC (link)

Scan usually doesn't mean wipe. Your hard drive must have pretty much gone poof for that sort of thing to happen. I would recommend strongly against using it for anything else. You can check your logs for errors in your Disk Management console to see how many disk errors got reported and of what type, but usually errors on the scale you're talking about are bad news indeed. Make sure your drive is properly ventilated as well, as conceivably poor ventilation could have caused something like you're talking about (but not likely).

If your data actually got "wiped" (meaning "overwritten"), you're screwed. If not, the SH/SC Wiki's Data Recovery guide should suffice to explain your options.

If you're looking for viruses or spyware as culprits, use the programs I recommended to you in my email earlier. :)

Again, use the SH/SC Wiki's Power Supply Guide for all your power supply calculating needs. It's the only real resource I've ever seen for this sort of thing online.

Also, try updating your mobo's BIOS, as your POSTing symptom sounds like it could be a BIOS problem. Don't forget to update the Windows drivers for your motherboard too, and manually, not through Windows update. Do a little research on which drivers are best, too, and what compatibility problems exist with them; sometimes the best drivers are not the most recent! :(

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past_the_mirror
2005-12-12 12:07 am UTC (link)

Oooh, and something I didn't mention: your power supply problems could be coming from your socket and not your power supply. Dirty power from the power company itself is a problem in some places. Are you running a UPS? After this many problems it may be worth investing in one to check - it's not too expensive, and it's a good idea anyway. I love my APC to death, and in the lightning capital of the world it's saved my ass many times. :)

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	omnihilos 2005-12-12 02:49 am UTC (link)
	Rwanda is the lightning capitol of the world. However, Florida is the lightning capitol of the United States, with the area from Tampa to Titusville known as "Lightning Alley". (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	past_the_mirror 2005-12-12 04:19 am UTC (link)
	Ha ha, did not know that. Thanks. :) (Reply to this)(Parent)

	past_the_mirror 2005-12-12 04:25 am UTC (link)
	PS The Capitol is a building, the capital is a city. :) (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	omnihilos 2005-12-12 05:16 am UTC (link)
	I thought that looked funny :). Good spelling has always been one of my principal interests. :) (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	fabiopl 2005-12-12 01:28 pm UTC (link)
	yay for intentional speling meestakes! (Reply to this)(Parent)

(Anonymous)
2005-12-12 12:25 am UTC (link)

I don't have logs for disk management or the email you sent me; both were included in chkdsk's razing. I dunno exactly what it did - it ran through so many operations so fast, I couldn't keep up with them. I think it said it was "deleting indexes" for the files it removed. I dunno what that means in file system speak, but I figure it's unlikely that it would actually overwrite ~100GB of stuff. I'm afraid some of the "fixed" files probably overwrote some deleted data though. Guess I'll spend some time looking through SHSC's data recovery app recommendations.

I doubt ventilation is an issue. My drive bay fits up to five HDs with comfortable spacing, so I had plenty of room to leave space between and around the two drives. I don't have a front case fan though, and have been meaning to acquire one just to be safe.

That PSU guide is still lacking - it doesn't list any of my hardware :| For example, my video card uses the Radeon X600 chipset, so it follows that it'd probably be lower than the rating given for the X800. But then those ratings don't take All-in-Wonder functions into account, which certainly draw more current. There's too much guesswork in determining power requirements for my taste :(

Will look into BIOS/driver updates. Thanks for the response!

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	smeg_ 2005-12-12 12:32 am UTC (link)
	Also, logging in would be good. I don't have a UPS. What can you tell me about them? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

past_the_mirror
2005-12-12 12:56 am UTC (link)

They even out disturbances in your power supply by means of a large battery, and provide surge protection as well. They're most useful for small blackouts, under- or over-voltages, and electrical noise on the line. You can set the thresholds for where it will intervene via software.

Also, in the event that a long blackout occurs, it will give you some time to save your work and shut down properly (between 5 and 30 minutes is pretty normal, depending on load and which model you have). If you're not around, the UPS will go into hibernation mode or shut down for you (at least, mine does).

Mine is an APC, which seems to be by far the most popular in the industry and the only brand you're likely to find at Best Buy. :) I have a 500W backup, which is enough to sustain my computer for about 15 minutes at "stay on as long as possible" setting.

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	omnihilos 2005-12-12 02:55 am UTC (link)
	I wonder about APC's cheaper units, though. I suspect their reputation is based more on the expensive heavy-duty industrial units. I don't really know one way or the other, it's just a thought. As you mention, APC's area easy to find at Best Buy, which is a big plus. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	past_the_mirror 2005-12-12 04:20 am UTC (link)
	I've had two, and both have worked pretty good for me. :) (Reply to this)(Parent)

past_the_mirror
2005-12-12 12:51 am UTC (link)

Virus/spyware: NOD32 ( http://www.nod32.com/download/trial.htm for a free trial, yes you will have to pay for this but it is so worth it :) )
Free alternate (and good backup check): TrendMicro HouseCall, a website ( http://housecall.trendmicro.com/ ) (WARNING: I think you will have to visit this page in IE, unless you know how to get around it in Firefox, which is kind of a pain and I forget how :( )
Second free alternate (and good backup check): Microsoft Antispyware, beta ( http://www.microsoft.com/athome/security/spyware/software/default.mspx )

Don't forget Spybot and AdAware just to be on the safe side. AVG is also a good free virus scanner if paying for NOD32 isn't up your alley.

Sorry that the SH/SC page doesn't list your exact hardware. I don't know where to find any better recommendations, as that's by far the best-researched and most specific site I've seen on the subject. :(

(Reply to this)(Parent)

	past_the_mirror 2005-12-12 01:00 am UTC (link)
	As a small idea, if you're looking for more power draw requirements, digging through your manuals and looking at the sources used in the SH/SC Wiki article might help some. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	smeg_ 2005-12-12 01:03 am UTC (link)
	Yeah, I've looked at the manuals. For some reason, hardware manufacturers are either unwilling or don't consider it important to disclose that information. Very rarely is it mentioned in manuals, at least in my experience. Thanks for the rest of your help though! (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	past_the_mirror 2005-12-12 04:19 am UTC (link)
	That's true, but I thought you should check and make sure anyway, though. :) (Reply to this)(Parent)

omnihilos
2005-12-12 02:45 am UTC (link)

leeching ridiculous quantities of copyrighted material via bittorrent

How many simultaneous torrents did you have going? I think anything more than three is dangerous, and a similar harddrive crapfest happened to me when I was running multiple torrents a few years ago. I may have mentioned it before. In my case, I think we determined that it simply overwrote some of the FAT, which means the data was theoretically recoverable but such a pain in the arse that it wasn't worth it. Unless you don't mind going through painstakingly and fixing the FAT's hex code manually for thousands of files.

I only run one torrent at a time nowadays (or even better, I just get my anime from streamload or buy actual dvds... it's not free but it solves the patience issue and also doesn't mess up my harddrive).

I do suspect bittorrent is to blame (I know they say in the documentation not to run more than three torrents, but it's not well-advertised and there aren't many safeguards against this). I have seen the effects of spyware and viruses and such and it's not the same, but if anyone else there has more perspective on these issues it would worth finding out what their diagnosis is.

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	grunzen 2005-12-12 02:49 am UTC (link)
	Interesting idea. Not sure about that one either way. I have run more than 3 torrents before, but not many more. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

omnihilos
2005-12-12 03:01 am UTC (link)

I had run as many as nine before without issues, but when it did crap out I believe I had three or so running (possibly as many as five). My computer was also doing nothing else at the time, so I'm clueless as to what else it could have been. BitTorrent documentation does state that more than three is not recommended. I don't know if that applies to all clients, though.

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past_the_mirror
2005-12-12 04:23 am UTC (link)

It's not recommended due to how many packets and such it might send out and receive (although advanced clients and better routers these days are making that restriction less and less important), and because many (most?) broadband home users don't have the upload bandwidth to support more than three or so adequately. But I've heard of people running upwards of 30 torrents without any big issues, so I wouldn't worry too much. :) (I've run 10 or so for long periods of time personally...)

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I dunno
omnihilos
2005-12-12 05:12 am UTC (link)

I just checked the FAQ and it states that in the vast majority of cases it is less efficient to run more than a few torrents, though it supports up to 100 simultaneous torrents in the newer clients. I guess it's useful for large numbers of really slow downloads.

Anyway, I'm probably just paranoid about such things because I lost so much data. I just can't take it that lightly. I probably shouldn't place the blame on BitTorrent since I don't know all the details of what my computer was doing behind the scenes, but the timing of the events pushes it into suspicion from my perspective. I would expect a virus to either do something useful and remain invisible or else just visibly kill or fuck the system in an obviously malicious way. What I experienced looked a lot more like a computer accidentally crapping all over itself for no good reason. I would expect a virus to delete files maybe, but not crap over only some of them with garbage. Also, I can't help but to feel smeg_'s experience had something to do with BitTorrent also (even if the initial fault is with RAM or the harddrive or bad network driver even, writing large quantities of data could be exacerbating it).

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	smeg_ 2005-12-12 09:17 pm UTC (link)
	I think that caveat is for the sake of speeding up the seeding for everyone, by preventing your upstream from being divided between too many sources. Then again, I did experience a couple of crashes when attempting to transfer large quantities of data from my old computer, so maybe you are onto something with this "network overload" idea. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	past_the_mirror 2005-12-12 04:28 am UTC (link)
	BitTorrent does put significant wear and tear on your drive, but not on the order of say, a defrag. It will expose flaws in your router, RAM, or hard drive pretty quickly, though. :) And there's two copies of your FAT on your hard drive. What happened to the other one? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	omnihilos 2005-12-12 05:13 am UTC (link)
	It will expose flaws in your router, RAM, or hard drive pretty quickly, though. :) This could be the problem :( and it isn't fun when it happens. The FATs were overwritten, sadly. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	past_the_mirror 2005-12-13 03:11 am UTC (link)
	Weird that both were overwritten, because they're in two totally different spots. Bad luck, I guess. :( (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	omnihilos 2005-12-16 03:08 am UTC (link)
	I don't know, maybe I have my story wrong. I'm not knowledgeable enough to know all the details, but it seems it wasn't as simple as just copying the second one. I don't remember why, though. :/ If I have any problems in the future, I'll be sure to ask your advice before attempting anything. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	smeg_ 2005-12-12 10:14 am UTC (link)
	Hmm...µtorrent's default limit is 3 seeds/8 total torrents. I'm not running FAT, but I'll keep your precaution in mind in the future. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	smeg_ 2005-12-12 09:34 pm UTC (link)
	Also, µtorrent blatantly ignored the limitations anyway and I often caught it with upwards of 12 or 15 active torrents at once :( (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

omnihilos
2005-12-16 03:11 am UTC (link)

I have not heard of µtorrent, is that a client? I've heard of BitComet, BitTornado, BitTorrent, Azureus, and a few others, but not µtorrent. But yeah, 12 to 15 seems a bit much. Even if it didn't cause the problem, it's writing a fuckton of data, which means if it's writing it to the wrong place = bad shit. Though I'm not even sure what the deal is with your system since you recently described boot problems too! Maybe motherboard/power supply issue? That's all I could think of... one of my friends has a job fixing computers, he might know better about that sort of issue.

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smeg_
2005-12-16 09:52 am UTC (link)

Yeah I guess µtorrent is the hot new thing (actually almost everyone on the network seems to be using Azureus but I don't get it. Java apps = yuck). The thing about the boot issue is that I'd expect a problem with the motherboard or PSU to make the system less stable. I haven't left it on for days yet, but it seems pretty solid so far, once it's running. I still think there's credence to your theory though.

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	grunzen 2005-12-12 02:48 am UTC (link)
	Ed said most of the stuff I would. If your hard drive wasn't making noise, though, in my experience it didn't fail. It's probably something else. Sounds like an odd sort of virus though. Also, data recovery is fucking expensive. (Reply to this)(Thread)

omnihilos
2005-12-16 03:19 am UTC (link)

From what you and Ed have said and his more recent issues, it seems unlikely that torrents could have been the origin of the problem. Do you think it would be a virus, though, on such a new computer? Given what all we know now, it seems possible that it is a hardware issue. It is truly a weird problem.

That's interesting about the harddrive noise, by the way. I didn't know that.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

past_the_mirror
2005-12-13 05:45 am UTC (link)

PS:

"If you suspect a drive is dying, backup as much data as possible before even attempting diagnostic tools. Once that's done, check the drive manufacturer's website for a fitness test utility. The Ultimate Boot CD also includes these utilities, although they may not be the most recent versions. If your hard drive is in an external housing, you may want to remove the drive and plug it directly into your PC to ensure that the housing is not the cause of your problems."

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