Peasant - Angelus – Not So Scourgy?

Thursday 16th September 2004

6.04 p.m. Angelus – Not So Scourgy?

[info]shapinglight has been thinking about Angelus. Which has got me thinking about Angelus. Let’s face it, hardly a new situation!

So, Angelus… Is he a bit of a prat? Or the worst vampire ever recorded? Or what.

Now it is an undeniable fact that he comes across as a prat in The Girl in Question. The Immortal is running rings round him. But I think the simplest way to see this is as an aberration – and quite probably a magical one at that. We only have Ilona Costa Bianchi’s word for it that the Immortal didn’t use magic. So I really think we can discount this little incident (or incidents) and just look at the rest of what we know.

The thing is I think you shouldn’t judge Angelus by human terms. Because one of the most significant things about him is that his rep was entirely amongst demons, not watchers. Spike is well known to the WC – Roger Wyndham-Price knew who he was, Lydia Chalmers did her thesis on him, Giles had very little trouble finding quite a few details in his reference books. Even the SS knew perfectly well who he was. This all seems to be because Spike (and to some extent Dru, though the references seem to have very little about her beyond that she was a paramour of Spike) crashed through history on a wave of very obvious violence. Angelus, by contrast, was so little known by the WC that Giles could find no references to him at all in his normal books – he had to read the diaries of former watchers to find mention of him. In other words Angelus wasn’t notable to the WC.

Yet Angelus’s rep amongst demons is extensive – their reactions in the demon bar in Salvage demonstrates this nicely. He is not just famous but awe inspiringly famous. Even the Archduke Sebasis seemed to have some respect for him.

Now I pointed out years ago that Angelus has problems with his attention span – I wouldn’t describe it as ADD, but he definitely doesn’t have as much sticking power as Spike, so I’m pretty sure he would never have been the sort to develop schemes for world domination. Besides, that is more the Master’s style and I can well imagine Angelus refusing to have much truck with such things simply to be different from his grandsire. The business with Acathla seems to contradict this but I actually think Angelus might not have gone through with the Acathla scheme – he was as much showing off and using it as an excuse to torture Giles as anything. Who’s to say he wouldn’t have stopped the whole thing and taken Dru out for a drink if Buffy hadn’t interfered?

So I’m pretty sure Angelus wasn’t trying to run the world but he was doing something that earned him the fear and respect of the demon/evil community (including the 35 filing cabinets on him at W&H) but made sure the WC had barely heard of him. That has to give pause for thought.

I think the clue to just what he was doing lies in one of his main faults, as I see it: his arrogance. He tends to overestimate his ability to control people – he clearly thought he could control the judge, he puts enormous effort into controlling Spike yet frequently fails, he reckoned he could match up to the Beast yet didn’t really manage it. To that extent he can be a prat. But I don’t think he does this because he is always incapable of controlling people – I think he does it because most of the time he is more than capable of it. Look how well he played Giles in season 2. He is a master at twisting and manipulating – he is responsible for Dru, Penn and Spike in every sense of the word, and they all admitted he was the one who made them as they were. (Well, Dru rambled about lamb’s caught in blackberry patches, but I reckon it amounts to the same thing.) Remember how one of his ghosts described the artfulness of how he had killed and presented the bodies. Remember how he said he couldn’t take his eyes off his victims.

Angelus She is pure innocence, yet she sees what’s coming, she knows what I’m going to do to her. I’ll really have to come up to snuff for this one.

(Dear Boy)

So I think all of Angelus’s rep boils down to people and how he killed them. He was never in the business of trying for world domination, indeed he delighted in the artistry of keeping a low profile and probably took very deliberate steps to eliminate any records the WC may have gathered at one time. How else to explain that he was chased by Holtz for so long yet the normal reference books had no record of it?

I think Angelus made a big splash when he was a fledge, attracting all the attention of Holtz and torch waving mobs everywhere, then when he got just a little older something happened to make him learn to enjoy the artistry of killing and tormenting in secret – doing terrible things to select people right under the noses of the WC. He slaughtered an entire nunnery to get to Dru and he isn’t in the reference books! That tells you quite a lot about Angelus.

Angelus A real kill. A good kill. It takes pure artistry. Without that, we’re just animals.

(Fool for Love)

So where does Darla fit into all this? I know some people have decided she was the brains of the outfit. I’ve never seen anything in Darla’s personality to imply that. Indeed her own ranting against it seems to imply that she knew all to well that her own main weakness was a tendency to rely on the men in her life to do things for her. I can see her as actually fitting quite well with the traditional rolde of women – guiding and suggesting but never leading. And I can’t see her doing much in the way of planning. Darla seems to live entirely for the moment as much as Spike ever does. She’s a flirt, a tease, unbelievably self centred, but as soon as something serious comes up she goes running to the nearest suitable man (Angel when she’s pregnant, Lindsey when she was newly re-vamped, the Master at repeated intervals). The only instance we have of her doing much by herself was when she rescued Angelus from Holtz. I just can’t see any sign of Darla stirring herself to be the brains of the fanged four. I could actually far more believably see Dru in that role. Darla I believe would have made sure she was given a certain amount of respect and otherwise been quite happy to let Angelus plan the batting order.

So if you want to judge Angelus as some sort of successful businessman or war leader then no, he wasn’t anything to write home about. But as a demon – as a creature who took pleasure in hurting and killing human beings without being caught – I reckon his reputation is justifiably deserved. He wasn’t a prat, he was the worst vampire imaginable. You know – the scourge of Europe.

Angelus Eternal torment. Am I learning?

(Dear Boy)

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18 comments

  1. [info]ludditerobot: Thursday 16th September 2004 10.25 a.m. (UTC)

    I would point out that she was scarcely able to lead Dru and Spike immediately after Angelus' souling, as shown in "Darla", and by the time of the Boxer Rebellion, she was clearly mostly working separately from Spike and Dru. Clearly, she got what she wanted by manipulating the men in her life, not by leading people herself.

    I find it interesting, beyond what you point out, that the Council had so little on Dru when her Slayer slaughter was much easier than either of Spike's.
  2. [info]zandra_x: Thursday 16th September 2004 10.49 a.m. (UTC)

    I enjoyed your post. I love a good speculation on Buffy/Angel.

    The Watchers seem to have known that Spike killed the Chinese slayer even though they were alone when the fight occurred. But they didn't have a link of known associates of Spike, yet the Four traveled together for a good while.

    Holtz involved a lot of other people in his search for Angelus and Darla, you'd think one or two of them would have left a written record.
  3. [info]inlovewithnight: Thursday 16th September 2004 10.51 a.m. (UTC)

    Oooh. That's good stuff.
    Angelus wasn't presented terribly consistently throughout the series (sadistic psychopath on Buffy, spoiled and lazy 'stallion' in the flashbacks, kinda-funny psychological sadist in Angel s4), but I think there's a common thread and that you're right, it's in that he focuses on details, individuals, personal suffering, instead of grand theatrics like Spike.
    Which, now that I think about it, is exactly what they said in "Damage." I miss things sometimes. ;)
    And I looove the idea of Dru being the brains of the outfit. Care to expand?
  4. [info]paratti: Thursday 16th September 2004 10.59 a.m. (UTC)

    Great post:)

    Do you think Angelus ever killed a slayer? I tend towards thinking that if he did, he killed everyone round her including her watcher to avoid the hunt by the next for the culprit. That could also have been the initial trigger for him and Darla (impressing the girl/sire) to get hunted by Holtz.

    I tend to think of Darla as Chair of the Board. Pointing Chief Executive Angelus at the target and letting him put the hours in to truly destroy the victim, thus offering her the enjoyment of watching her darling boy at work and the vicarious and often shared (like Dru was 'during') pleasure of the slaughter. Though I could be wrong.

    I tend to put the Acathlas incident down to tempory insanity caused by the suppressing soul removal letting out the fractured personality Angelus created to cope with the massive psychological trauma of the involuntary souling. One that the Angel's acscendency is dependent on the support/supressive element the soul offers him. One that Spike doesn't show as he responded to his chosen souling in a different psychological way reflecting his own circumstances and personality.
    1. [info]rahirah: Thursday 16th September 2004 11.12 a.m. (UTC)

      I never got the impression that Angel went after Slayers. The death or glory thing isn't what drives him, and he's not interested in showy fights he might lose. If a Slayer comes after him, as Buffy and Faith did, he seems willing to take them on, but I don't think he ever sought them out.
      1. [info]paratti: Thursday 16th September 2004 11.31 a.m. (UTC)

        He might have in the early years of cutting a swathe through Yorkshire et al, when he was all Stallion out to impress Darla, and learnt his lesson with Holtz's involvement during or after the event, when they became more under the rader to the world of the COW. It would account for the 'you're one of us' comment after Spike killed the Chinese slayer.
        1. [info]rahirah: Thursday 16th September 2004 11.51 a.m. (UTC)

          Obviously there have to be a lot of vampires who've killed Slayers, since there are a lot of dead Slayers, so it's possible, but I don't think it's likely. If Angelus had deliberately hunted down and killed a Slayer or Slayers, I think it would have been mentioned by now, even if he'd kept it quiet at the time. I always took the 'You're one of us" comment as a more general "You're a growed-up vampire now" rather than an specific welcome into the Slayer Killer's Club.

          Though I must admit that some of my reluctance is due the the several fic writers I've come across who can't bear the idea that Spike beat Angel out in anything, and give Angelus a ridiculously high Slayer kill count in consequence. And honestly, it just doesn't strike me as Angel's style. I always thought that was the whole point of the mineshaft scene, to contrast Angelus and Spike's takes on killing.
          1. [info]paratti: Thursday 16th September 2004 12.02 p.m. (UTC)

            I despise that trope too, and I do think that if Angelus killed a slayer it was early in his career and the consequences knocked him down a peg and sent him into that more deliberate style from the early swathes through Galway, Yorkshire et al. Accordingly if he did, I think it was one slayer, which is less than Spike's total so a very good reason for Angel to focus on making Spike feel guilty about murdering Slayers and avoid his own dislike of coming second by mentioning his own total.
            1. [info]sisabet: Thursday 16th September 2004 12.22 p.m. (UTC)

              Interesting - I never really considered that Angelus might have killed a slayer as it just didn't seem to fit his *style* and I always took the "Your one of us" comment in the context that Angel has a soul there - and it is more of a condemnation of himself and Spike than a welcoming (although Spike takes it quite differently and professes to be ignorant of Angel's soul for the next century).

              Young, brash and out to prove something Angelus might have killed a slayer - but I don't think I buy it based on what we know about him - I just think it would have come up at some point. He never seems to think seeking out a slayer is something that would be a fun way to spend an evening and neither does Darla for that matter. Darla and the Master were already in Sunnydale when the slayer showed up...

              ::thinks::

              Okay - wait - I see what you are saying - and I think that it might be likely that a slayer may have *hunted* a young Angelus and I would buy that he killed her - but I don't think he would have thrilled in it - hence the warning to Spike in the mineshaft.
              1. [info]paratti: Thursday 16th September 2004 12.35 p.m. (UTC)

                Yep, the whole a slayer killing blowing up in his face situation - possibly explaining how Holtz originally got pulled in - and the resulting being hunted across Europe for years, being bashed over the head by a shovel wielding Darla, Inquisition torture etc, could all explain a shift from the cocky bastard introduced to the Master to the guy we see in Hearthrob and later years who sees being persued and slayers as bad things to avoid. Hence I think if he did kill a slayer it was early, not something he went out of his way to repeat, and the entire consequences of something he may not have gone out to do affected his entire hunting pattern thereafter.

                And of course, I could be entirely wrong.
                1. [info]sisabet: Thursday 16th September 2004 12.50 p.m. (UTC)

                  No - I'd agree with everything - except for the not mentioning the dead Slayer thing to Spike because Spike has a higher "score" - I don't get that level of competition from Angel toward Spike at all until mid and late season 5.
  5. [info]rahirah: Thursday 16th September 2004 11.07 a.m. (UTC)

    I've always thought of Darla as a manipulator rather than a leader. She bats her lashes, coos that she'd be lost without her big strong man, and gets Angelus to do all the hard work while she sits back and enjoys her room with a view. On the other hand, I did see her as the one in charge after Angel got souled: she was the one with the power to accept or reject Angel. I don't think it's a position she would have chosen, but when it was thrust upon her, she made the best of it--though not, I'll bet, for very long, because I don't think she gave a damn for Spike, and while she's shown some fondness or Drusilla, I don't think she'd have made any effort to keep Dru around once Spike got stroppy. I figure either Spike left and took Dru with him, or Darla ditched both of them and went back to the Master.

    Angelus is difficult to figure, since the writers seem to make him whatever the plot demands--world-ending mastermind or drunken frat boy with fangs. I do wonder if his relative lack of mention in the reference books was simply due to the fact that he'd dropped out of view for a century, and was no longer considered a present menace.

    I think it's worth noting that the Acathla thing was never about ruling the world, just about destroying it, and that it was very much at odds with his previously expressed (to the Master) liking for the world. It's possible the modern Angelus is just plain cracked due to overexposure to the soul.
  6. [info]violethamster: Thursday 16th September 2004 11.53 a.m. (UTC)

    I think it's quite possible that both viewpoints of Angelus, as prat and most evil evil thing ever, could be true.

    The same dichotomy exists with Angel. On BtVS, and at times on AtS, especially in the beginning, he's got his dark cool sexy vampire mystique thang going on. Later, especially on AtS, he's often a big doofus.

    The key might be point of view. The most evil guy ever appearance would make sense if you were looking at Angelus from the viewpoint of someone who could be one of his victims or a witness to his crimes. He's mysterious, threatening and unknown to them. Angel has those qualities himself on BtVS, although in a non-malignant fashion, which I believe is because he's being shown from the viewpoints of others who really don't know him that well, even Buffy.

    On AtS, he starts to form closer friendships and becomes more knowable. I think we see dorky Angel when we're seeing him from his own point of view, or the point of view of friends. I think the "not such a bad guy" Angelus prat instance was from Angel's point of view, describing his past to Cordy with whom he feels less of a need to hide dorkiness. The TGiQ prat Angelus occurs when he's with Spike, who knows him well and clearly doesn't consider him a personal threat (although Angelus is far from being a fluffy kitten, as he casually twists some guy's head off).
    1. [info]sisabet: Thursday 16th September 2004 12.26 p.m. (UTC)

      ::Bounces::

      He is both!! Angel is all things - he is a dark sexy hunk of the night thing with the capacity to commit the most atrocious of atrocities and he is also a big ole doofus with the emotional maturity of a 10 year old. I never considered Angelus as being a prat -however - in TGiQ (as you said - look at the kills) but I do think he was perhaps out of his element. Angel? BIG OLE PRAT
  7. [info]itsabigrock: Thursday 16th September 2004 1.24 p.m. (UTC)

    Peasant I always love your insights. I tend to be of the ilk that I love Angelus when he's a fop (the scene in Offspring filled with arrows is always the first thing that comes to mind) but I also love him when you can see a plan forming in his eyes. Not a long reaching plan, I agree, but it's almost like an artist when the picture comes into focus and he knows just what he wants to paint.

    I'm wondering if you'd mind me putting this at my sites along with Deb's post (which I already have permission for).

    Once again you've made me fall in love with Angelus!
  8. [info]shapinglight: Friday 17th September 2004 2.25 a.m. (UTC)

    Nah, he was a prat.

    Okay, I know it's not that simple, and I was being somewhat tongue-in-cheek in my post, as I hope was evident. But I don't think him a great evil genius particularly, all the same. Vicious, undoubtedly - even the Master said so - but not big with the planning and gets bored very easily. In a way, it's funny to me that people talk about Spike having the attention span of a five-year-old when, as you say, he's much better at sticking to something than Angelus ever was.

    I'm afraid I tend to think 'outside' the show when stuff like the non-mention of Angelus in the WC records comes up - by which I mean that it only never came up because it didn't suit the plot of the show that it should. And Kate Lockley found a book with loads of stuff in it about Angelus in her local occult bookstore in Somnambulist, so it seems pretty far-fetched to believe that the WC didn't have that same book, (unless they really were as stupid as they sometimes seem after all) or that he really hid his trail so well.

    Re: Darla, when I said she was 'the brains' behind Angelus, I suppose I should have said that, like [info]rahirah above, I see her as being quite happy to be 'the power behind the throne' as it were - or taking on the 'behind every great man is a woman' role. She'd get her way by insinuation and flattery and expect to be handed out of her carriage and given a room with a view. But we did see in the show that she picked Angelus's victims for him sometimes - as in Dear Boy when she picked Drusilla.

    I also can never see this raging hatred, or even any particular dislike, for Spike that fanon seems to think she had, so I just ignore it.
  9. [info]ddraigbach: Wednesday 22nd September 2004 12.30 p.m. (UTC)

    hang on - where do we get the idea of Angelus having LESS staying power/attention span than Spike? How about Dru and Buffy? In Spike's case, he was in love with the ladies, so hung on in there. In Angelus' case, it was nothing to do with love, pure obsession. And obsession demands an attention span.

    Spike varies from being quite capable of spending long periods of time concentrating on one thing if it's vital (Dru's cure springs to mind) and having the attention span of....well, my 2 year old! But Angelus always seemed able to give anything as much of his attention as he wanted.

    what examples have I been blind to?

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