It's a long way to Tifaret

I am not religious at all.
Offcially I am (and my family) Greek Orthodox and we did a few things like go to midnight mass for Easter (and all the traditions that went with it), go to church weddings and baptisms. But thats about it. My mother was not a believer in Church but believes in god.
My Dad, before he died, said he had no interest in a religious ceremony for his funeal, so we avoided that too.
My parents pretty much left it to us to decide what we bleieved in.
I got no formal or informal religious instruction.
I have never read the bible, just picked up bits here and there and have some vague notions about it.
I'm not interested in the least.

But have you thought about what sort of non-religion you have? Atheism, agnosticism, humanism, existentialism....

Cool if you haven't. I didn't until quite recently.

I think I'll save this for Thursday night if that's ok. :)

A the age 12 I told my Mom that I refused to go to church even at Christmas and Easter. I've never felt Christian I'm the only one in the family not confirmed. My sister and mother find lots of things to love about the christian church and ignore anything that doesn't fit.

I do lots of research into Celtic history and mine is a personal path that is influenced by things my ancestors believed. I like this list of values:

Honor
Loyalty
Hospitality
Honesty
Justice
Courage

I've had experience in a couple of covens of Wiccan and Ceremonial magic influence and while the group mind was a great experience I'm not really into the Wiccan thang.

I suppose that "Lilurism" is the best description of what I follow.

I'm drawn to an idea of Compassion being central to wherever it is I'm going. The values you list are admirable and important.
Is there a "Divine" sort of thing in your world-view? Is it internal or external? Omniscient and omnipotent, or just kinda there?

I'm with you on the "values" rather than "religion" thing.

I'm basically agnostic, really.

Well, since you ask, here's one I prepared earlier :) (Yay! A chance to justify the time I spent writing it!)

i didn't like my original answer... but still sticking with spiritual and not religious, still thinking how to describe it beyond that.

A while back I wrote a long rant about religion here. Nothing particularly interesting to see there.

I'm am quite anti-religious.

Aside from that, I don't believe in the supernatural, or souls, or other powers. I am willing to accept that they may exist but I won't care until there is a measurable impact on my life.

Morally, I'm an existentialist. I perceive myself (somewhat inaccurately) as "creating meaning" for my life by choosing my actions based on a decision framework that I have selected for myself. The content of the framework is what I am comfortable with, which is largely what most people are comfortable with, plus some fairly standard left-liberal leanings.

I think that being able to make a choice is valuable in and of itself.

I am more conservative than some people I know in some ways - for example, at least for my own relationships, I prefer strict sexual monogamy.

I have stopped bothering to try and work out "final answers" to moral thought experiments because circumstances always alter cases, and I've also stopped trying to preemptively fill in grey areas in my moral code, which is something I used to waste a lot of time on.

In terms of my beliefs about how the world works, I subscribe to a semi-understood grab-bag of popular scientific theories, coupled with as rational an approach as I can manage to those things that aren't adequately covered by science (such as love and friendship). I am happy to change my beliefs when a new theory becomes popular. My main criterion in selecting a way of understanding the universe on a day-to-day basis is "how useful is it?". My main criterion in selecting a way of understanding the universe in a deeper way is "how interesting is it?". How well I bother to understand anything at any given time is determined by my free time and my level of interest or whether I need to deal specifically with a given phenomenon.

I am not enormously smug about my beliefs (because I am aware they're not founded on a huge amount of learning) but I am quite smug about the way I have formed and maintain them.

One thing that I have come across recently that has posed a significant challenge to my fairly militant "scientific rational" worldview is the philosophical work of Heidegger. I've been reading a nice lazy sort of "Heidegger Cliff Notes" if you like.

One thing that has really blown me away (partly because it ties in really nicely with my quasi-existentialist ideas about personal conduct) is the idea of "reverse construction" of a worldview. Instead of pretending to start "at first principles" and work towards a coherent "universe machine" as science usually does, one starts with the actual complex thing, which is a human consciousness and its interaction with its context, and recognise the "first principles" for what they are - sophisticated abstractions developed from that complex thing.

e.g. a hammer is a tool used by a human in a room to hit a nail before it is ever a variegated collection of atoms of different types held together by physical forces that form a rigid body parts of which are variably high in surface friction (the handle grip) or hard (the head).

e.g. time is time for doing something, planning something, or waiting for something before it is a measurable sequence of Planck-length instants in which physical interactions occur.

I have really enjoyed this philosophy of "Dasein" (Heidegger's word for the human-in-place, roughly German for "here-being") lately. It's cool. I plan to read as much more Heidegger as I can, soon. If you haven't (but hey, you probably have) then I recommend it.

I haven't read Heidegger, and now feel I should, especially the Dasein stuff. What's your Dummy's Guide to Heidegger called then?

"here"

An interesting read.

I'm not convinced about the existence of "God" or "gods" or external divine or supernatural stuff. Quite happy with that. No god, no magic, none of that rubbish. Magic as I understand it is all about changing the mind's perceptions of itself, not changing stuff externally.

I'm with you on the absence of souls, and that our existence is that of complex natural machines. Our brains are a complex mass of synapses and neurotransmitters, nothing more.

I'm sticking with bits of humanism and existentialism for now. Be nice to people, be compassionate, treat animals and your environment well otherwise you're acting without common dignity, yada yada yada. I'm happy with the moral code I've developed about how to act externally. I just don't know if there's more internally.

I'm also starting to think that my capacity to experience myself, my world and my life is possibly limited - is there more to my mind and body than I've been aware of? Well, more correctly, is there more to the mind's capacity to experience than I currently think there is?

This is part of what I'm pondering. Is there more to me than I think? Is there some "other" aspect to me, call it "divine" or whatever, but perhaps me and my machine's view is not all there is.

eg chakras. I've never believed in this - codswallop! Until a recent deep tissue shoulder massage casued _something_ to stir at the base of my spine, where Kundalini reputedly hangs out. It was extremely distressing, and I have no scientific, rational or anatomical explanation for what happened. Is there more in my brain than I think there is? Stuff that makes me experience my body differently from what I'm used to? Or was it just some freaky thing that happened?

Sorry this is all a bit all over the place - good reflection of my thoughts at the moment.

i think the movie stigmata sums up my views on organized religion quite well.

im more of the do good things and be a good person and if there is an afterlife youll be alright

mind you, i do like going to church (where church is the 15min version we had to go to once a week at my highschool). i really like singing hymns, theyre very positive and uplifting. our school reverend was really cool too, she had some favourite bible stories and gave really good interpretations of them.

of course i havent been to church since highschool, but i think thats half because i dont get up before services are over, and half due to the effort required to find a good church.

i wouldnt say im religious, but my 'church' is the uniting church, and theyre pretty cool about most things that other churches (catholics) have issues with.

i hope this make sense

Uniting Church are indeed cool. Dave and I were married by a Uniting Church minister, despite being a humanist and a pagan shaman, and the whole open marriage thing. The minister didn't mind, as we had fairly sensible views on life and marriage regardless.

I'm not convinced there's an afterlife. I think there's death, and then that's the end of it.
I've met intelligent Christians who don't believe in Heaven, which confused me - isn't that the whole point of Christianity? Be good and you get to go to Heaven when you're dead?

Recently I've come to understand Christianity (I think), but it seems a different understanding than what I'd seen before.
Previously it seemed to be: God creates everything. In the Old Testament, God's a right wanker. Jesus is sent to Earth, gets murdered, is resurrected and this a) shows there's an afterlife and b) means that God forgives everyone's sins. New Testament God is less of a wanker, and is nice instead.
Now I think the whole point of God sending Jesus to Earth to live as a human, then suffer and die has less to do with the "sinful" nature of humanity, and more to do with God learning what it's like to be human, what suffering is about, what feeling remote from and abandoned by God is like, and thus develops compassion through this understanding. Humanity changes God, not the other way round.
The point of it is (I think) that when you suffer, you get to know that God now understands what you're going through, and so you're not all alone. God got through it, and so can you. Thus there's hope. Also, if you take the view that time doesn't have to be viewed as this linear experience we know it as, when you suffer, you're doing it alongside Jesus (or God).

I'm much more interested in a religion/world view that has compassion at its core. I'm not sure though if I've missed the point completely about Christianity.
I'm also not convinced that "God" exists, and if so, is separate to us. I'm currently leaning more towards an internal experience of "The Divine" if there is such a thing.

i like to think the afterlife=reincarnation

i also dont really believe that god exists. at least not in the form that the bible talks about. not quite sure if i think a supreme entity exists either - but if they do, theyre just like a good parent - give them enough rope to strangle themselves with, but hope they make something useful out of it instead. hrmn.. not sure if that analogy works.. more along the lines of let them learn from their own mistakes because you cant really stop them from doing something you dont want them to.

i really see the bible just as some dudes experience and s/he wrote it down as a "how to live your life 'right' " kinda thing. the things they do/did arent necessarily going to work for you or anyone else, its just a guide for you to interpret your own meanings from.

pagan. tho I'm just starting out.

don't tell my family, tho. Conservative Christains and lasped Catholics mainly. Some of them already think I'm going to hell for playing role-playing games.

Eh, I'm going to hell for shagging people other than my husband, so it's lucky really I don't believe in an afterlife.

I do believe that "heaven" and "hell" are definitely constructs of the human mind - only people end up placing themselves in one or the other through peace or self-torment.
If you're in hell, you can find your way out. Your not there for eternity, only if you want it to be that way.

What sort of pagan are you, and what are the bits of paganism you like/don't like/don't understand?

Fairly hard-core atheist, raised with no religion (not atheism - just no mention whatsoever of any kind of belief or unbelief). I didn't know there was such a thing until 3rd grade, when my family moved to Sydney and my parents made arrangements for me and my sister to be excused from religion classes at school. Possibly my education was somewhat lacking! At 30, I mistook the hall with the maps in the Vatican museums for the Sistine Chapel...

Of course I know that agnosticism is more defensible, but atheism suits my personality better and is more of a statement against religion.

I think I'd be a truly miserable and unhappy person if I had to reconcile the state of the world with a belief in a powerful entity that could do something about it. The concept of worshipping such an entity makes me feel ill.

I spend a fair amount of time thinking about these issues, so it does play a role in my life. It always makes me feel centred (and amused, and free) to reaffirm my understanding of how the world works and the total insignificance of my brief lifespan here on this planet!

I've never seen the need for any need for any kind of belief system that formalises moral values.

I agree with the person above who said that even highly unusual phenomena are probably perfectly explainable and one day our knowledge will catch up. It's crazy to think that just because we can't explain something now, there must be some kind of supernatural force at work. Just look at all the things people attributed to gods in the past!

"I think I'd be a truly miserable and unhappy person if I had to reconcile the state of the world with a belief in a powerful entity that could do something about it. The concept of worshipping such an entity makes me feel ill. "

Hear, hear. I can't get my head around the idea of worship, even if your telling God you're happy about some stuff. Must be some sort of egocentric to need all this praise.

I think Christians have struggled with the idea of bad stuff happening randomly for millenia. There are some interesting heresies developed at different points in the history of Christianity to explore ideas of how an omnipotent, omniscient and supposedly loving god can exist when there is so much bad stuff happening in the world. I can try to drag Dave into the conversation as he knows much more about this than me.

I think if there is any "Divine", then it's not an active or interventionalist force. Just a compassionate witness, perhaps.

Im an atheist, and have been ...pretty much always. In terms of What Guides Me, I just try to do the right thing, harm no one where possible, be kind yadayada. Not because I think I'll be rewarded, but because I'd like to hope that I will be treated in a similar fashion, if I behave that way. If not, well, shrug, shit happens. About the only thing that I wish was different about atheism is the lack of community. Mind you, in many parts of the world, it is still quite deadly or dangerous to reveal that you are an atheist. But that just proves another point about religion....and those that take it too seriously.

I believe strongly in the idea that if you are good and kind (and strong and compassionate), you'll end up surrounded by similar people, and life will be enjoyable. If you're a dickhead, or a miserable git, life will be difficult for you. Lots of people I've met through my work reinforce my beliefs here. Sure, nice people get cancer, or have random badness happen to them, but they're not constantly having bad shit happen, or surround themselves with simlarly miserable dickheads.

I am religious -enough-. Regarding reconciling the bits that don't fit, my branch already altered, dropped and changed quite a bit, so it kind of instilled a good portion of "follow what is _right_" (with subtext of "right for you"). Religion for me has always been about the message.

The sucky thing about 'people' is that some people need religion as a reason/direction/encouragment to do the right thing. Ie. doing what is 'right' doesn't come naturally for everyone, so a set of rules and guidelines are required. In that case, organized religion is helpful, and I respect that.

For me? It's one of those things which is always 'there' if we need it. Not entirely sure what for yet, but maybe, one day...

[snip]
I started to write a lot more, on God, but here is the short version:
I believe in God, as I believe God is.

When you are told stories as a kid which contradict each other "God is everywhere" "God is in Heaven" and so forth, you need to make choices at some point as to which (if any) are true. *shrug*

I suppose (to put a label on it) I am a "strong agnostic reformed jew".
"strong agnosticism (aka hard agnosticism, closed agnosticism, strict agnosticism) — the view that the question of the existence of deities is unknowable by nature or that human beings are ill-equipped to judge the evidence."

It's funny, one of the basic ideas of Judaism is "respect God". Then the texts go on for, well, a long while giving rules/examples on how to do so. Thing is, As far as I'm concerned, most of them aren't really needed, if you understand the message. (okay, the message in this case is "you owe your entire existance to God, so be grateful. If his gift was existance, wouldn't the best way to say thanks to use it the best way we can? Squandering it would be the greatest insult.)

Hi, wandered in from another link, thought I might be able to offer something.

I call myself a pagan agnostic - I don't know or define exactly what I believe, but there's *something* and it seems to fall in the general pagan category based on my opinions on how evil (or not) things like gender, sexuality issues and environmental problems are. I have a strong feel for the heart and life of Nature, and my personal worship is very much based around that. Not Wiccan, I find the preponderance of such books a little tragic. A long time ago I was a Navigator, and I still feel like I'm sailing through starlight and earth currents finding new ways to travel, new ways to read a map and compass, sitting quietly polishing my astrolabe while the sky moves a handful of degrees above.

One of the hardest things I find to explain is that I give service to my faith. It's hard to explain because I make a point of not defining a lot of key ideas (such as who I'm actually worshipping). So who am I in service to? I'm not sure. She seems to be female, I don't know if she's a Goddess as some would define it (how *is* that, anyway?), or simply a personification of the local ecosystem and sense of place. Occasionally I get instructions, and I follow them, trusting that there's a sense of purpose to what gets asked, she picks the pieces in her hands who'll do the task most naturally, and sometimes all I have to do is be in the right place and just being who I am will mean I do what ever it is she needs done. I trust that she won't ask me to act against my own nature, though she might ask me to do something that causes a little growth.

And here too it gets confused, because I'm not always sure that these instructions come from the same place or source, I know of multiple worldviews that explain bits of them and they don't fit neatly together.

That's a bit rambly, probably doesn't answer anything.

I recommend everyone read Von Danikan's "Chariots of the Gods"
(spelling might be off)
written in the 70s, I believe, and puts forth the theory that all the old gods were actually aliens. Pretty amusing stuff.

I am actually quietly religious, in a way that seems to surprise a lot of people when they find that out.

I believe in a higher power, that I choose - through lack of evidence and ease of reference - to refer to as "God". I don't go to church, but do believe that most of the stuff Jesus is reported to have preached is, by and large, a pretty neat idea. I suppose I'm philosophically Christian, which makes me more Christian than 99% of the self-proclaimed proper ones.

I do have off days, when I feel fairly atheistic, but I've always settled back down to a quiet, solitary pseudo-Christianity in the end.

I certainly don't believe in organized religion at all - I think it's an understanding with your environment that you have to come to by yourself, and being told by other people what you should and should not believe is a bad thing.

I also think everyone should read the Bible at least once, purely as a work of literature. Bits of it (often not the famous bits) are well cool.