dani ([info]_allecto_) wrote,
@ 2007-12-15 23:15:00
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A Rapist's View of the World: Joss Whedon and Firefly
This is a really long rant about Joss Whedon's Firefly. Why? Because I'm angry and I think it is really important that feminists don't leave popular culture out of the equation. Especially considering that popular culture is increasingly being influenced by pornography.

***

I have become increasingly interested in examining Joss Whedon’s work from a feminist perspective since I had a conversation with another lesbian feminist sister at the International Feminist Summit about whether Joss was a feminist. I am really quite shocked by how readily Joss is accepted as a feminist, and that his works are widely considered to be feminist. I decided to start re-watching Buffy: The Vampire Slayer and also to watch Firefly and the movie Serenity.

I have to say that now that I have subjected myself to the horror that is Firefly, I really am beyond worried about how much men hate us, given that this was written by a man who calls himself a feminist.

I find much of Joss Whedon’s work to be heavily influenced by pornography, and pornographic humour. While I would argue that there are some aspects of Buffy: The Vampire Slayer that are feminist and progressive, there is much that isn’t and I find it highly problematic that there are many very woman-hating messages contained within a show that purports itself as feminism. But Firefly takes misogyny to a new level of terrifying. I am really, really worried that women can call the man who made this show a feminist.

For myself, I’m not sure that I will recover from the shock of watching the malicious way in which Joss stripped his female characters of their integrity, the pleasure he seemed to take from showing potentially powerful women bashed, the way he gleefully demonized female power and selfhood and smashed women into little bits, male fists in women’s faces, male voices drowning out our words.

There is so much hatred towards women contained within the scripts and action of the series that I doubt very much that this post will even begin to cover it. I am going to try to focus on the episodes that were written by Joss Whedon but I will also refer to the series as a whole. As Joss Whedon was responsible for the concept development and was a producer, ultimately I hold him accountable for the depiction of women in the entire season. Only one episode was written by a woman. It was no better or worse in its depiction of women than the ones written by men.

The pilot episode, Serenity, was written and directed by Joss Whedon. The basic plot of the series is Malcolm Reynolds and his second in command Zoe, have made a new life for themselves after fighting a war against the Alliance, which they lost. They bought a Firefly, an old space ship, and Mal calls it Serenity, after the last battle they fought for the Independence. The pilot of the ship, Wash, is Zoe’s husband. Kaylee is the ship’s mechanic and Jayne, the final member of the crew, is the brainless brawn. This bunch of criminals go around stealing things and generally doing lots of violence.

They also take on board passengers. There is Inara, a Companion (Joss Whedon’s euphemism for women in prostitution). She rents one of the ship’s shuttles. Simon, a doctor and his sister River. And a Shepherd (which means preacher), a black male character.

The first scene opens in a war with Mal and Zoe. Zoe runs around calling Mal ‘sir’ and taking orders off him. I roll my eyes. Not a good start.

The next scene is set in the present. Mal, Jayne, and Zoe are floating about in space. They come into some danger. Mal gets all panicky.

Zoe says, “This ship's been derelict for months. Why would they –”

Mal replies, (in Chinese) “Shut up.”

So in the very second scene of the very first episode, an episode written and directed by the great feminist Joss, a white man tells a black woman to ‘shut up’ for no apparent reason. And she does shut up. And she continues to call him sir. And takes his orders, even when they are dumb orders, for the rest of the series.

The next scene we meet Kaylee, the ship’s mechanic. <- Lookee, lookee, feminist empowerment. In this scene Mal and Jayne are stowing away the cargo they just stole. Kaylee is chatting to them, happily. Jayne asks Mal to get Kaylee to stop being so cheerful. Mal replies, “Sometimes you just wanna duct tape her mouth and dump her in the hold for a month.” Yes, that is an exact quote, “Sometimes you just wanna DUCT TAPE HER MOUTH and DUMP HER IN THE HOLD FOR A MONTH.” Kaylee responds by grinning and giving Mal a kiss on the cheek and saying, “I love my Captain.”

What the fuck is this feminist man trying to say about women here? A black woman calling a white man ‘sir’. A white male captain who abuses and silences his female crew, with no consequences. The women are HAPPY to be abused. They enjoy it. What does this say about women, Joss? What does this say about you? Do you tell your wife to shut up? Do you threaten to duct tape her mouth? Lock her in the bedroom? Is this funny to you, Joss? Because it sure as fuck ain’t funny to me.

Our first introduction to Inara the ‘Companion’, Joss Whedon’s euphemism for prostituted women, is when she is being raped/fucked/used by a prostitutor. I find it really interesting to read the scripted directions for this particular scene:

We are close on INARA's face. She is being made love to by an eager, inexperienced but quite pleasingly shaped young man. She is beneath him, drawing him to his climax with languorous intensity. His face buried in her neck.

He tightens, relaxes, becomes still. She runs her hand through is hair and he pulls from her neck, looks at her with sweaty insecurity. She smiles, a worldly, almost motherly sweetness in her expression. He rests his head on her breast, still breathing hard.


So, Joss Whedon refers to rapist/fuckers who buy women as sex, as ‘eager, inexperienced but pleasingly shaped’ who ‘make love’ to women in prostitution. Obviously, ‘love’ to men like Joss Whedon, requires female powerlessness, force and coercion. Women in prostitution enjoy the experience of being bought for sex. They feel ‘motherly’ towards the men who have just treated them as property and bought them as sex.

In Joss Whedon’s future world prostituted women are powerful and respectable. They go to an Academy, to train in the arts of being a ‘Companion’. They belong to a Guild which regulates prostitution, forces women to endure yearly health tests and comes up with rules to make prostitution sound empowering for women. For example, one Guild rule is that the ‘Companion’ chooses her rapist, not the other way around.

But there is one really big question that does not get answered. The women who ‘choose’ to be ‘Companions’ are shown as being intelligent, accomplished, educated, well-respected and presumably from good families. If a woman had all of these qualities and opportunities then why the fuck would she ‘choose’ to be a man’s fuck toy? Would being a fuck toy for hundreds of men give a woman like Inara personal fulfillment? Job satisfaction? A sense of purpose? Fulfill her dreams? Ambitions?

Money doesn’t seem to be the motivation behind Inara’s ‘choice’ to be a ‘Companion’, presumably she just ‘enjoys’ swanning around in ridiculous outfits. And being used as a fuck toy by men is seemingly a small price to pay for the pleasure.

At any rate, Inara’s apparent ‘power’ is merely a figment of Joss Whedon’s very sick imagination. In a later episode, Inara is shown to have set down three very specific rules in relation to her arrangement to hiring one of Mal’s shuttles as her base of operations. 1) No crew member, including the Captain would be allowed entrance to the shuttle without Inara’s express invitation. 2) Inara refuses to service the Captain nor anyone under his employ. And 3) the Captain cannot refer to Inara as a whore.
Mal agrees to all of these rules but he breaks every single one of them. Blatantly and deliberately. The third thing that Mal says in the first interaction between Inara and Mal is, “She’s a whore…” Does Inara stop him from calling her a whore? Nope. She just goes on smiling and being gracious. So he calls her a whore again. Lovely man this Mal is, dontcha think?

And in regards to her first rule, Mal takes every opportunity he can to break it. In the first episode Mal barges into Inara’s shuttle. The interchange goes like this:

Inara: What are you doing on my shuttle?

Mal: It's my shuttle. You rent it.

Inara: Then when I'm behind on the rent, you can enter unasked.


Scenes like this continue to occur for the rest of the series. Mal never apologises for breaking the terms of his agreement with Inara. And although Inara gets a little annoyed, she does not get really angry at the Captain for consistently undermining her power and invading her space. She tells the Captain to get out but he rarely complies. The point is that a man should never invade a woman’s personal space to begin with. Especially when he has been told expressly that he is not invited. But Mal delights in pointing out Inara’s powerlessness, it makes him feel all manly.

In regards to her servicing the crew, she begins to service the Captain and the male passengers of the ship from day one. The following is an excerpt from the script of Serenity. Book is a black male character. He is a Preacher and disapproves of Inara’s ‘profession’.

BOOK Is this what life is, out here?

INARA Sometimes.

BOOK I've been out of the abbey two days, I've beaten a Lawman senseless, I've fallen in with criminals... I watched the captain shoot a man I swore to protect. And I'm not even sure if I think he was wrong.

INARA Shepherd...

He is shaking a bit, tearing up.

BOOK I believe I just... (a pained smile) I think I'm on the wrong ship.

INARA Maybe. Or maybe you're exactly where you ought to be.

He lowers his head. She puts her hand on it, a kind of benediction. We hold on them a second.


It is clear from the outset that a large part of Inara’s service involves addressing issues of male inadequacy and fulfilling many other emotional needs of her clients. The ability to do this IS a resource and it is therefore a service that Inara must perform. BUT Inara services all of the male passengers and the Captain in this way. She also services Kaylee but the relationship between them is a little more reciprocal. In any case, Mal makes it pretty obvious that he expects his emotional needs to be serviced by Inara and she willingly obliges. Mal also allows the male passengers to demand her emotional services and does not tell them to stop, despite the terms of his agreement with Inara. Inara is not paid by any of these men for her time, energy and emotional support.

Beyond a shadow of a doubt, Joss uses his own wife in this way. Expects her to clean up his emotional messes. Expects her to be there, eternally supportive, eternally subservient and grateful to him in all his manly glory. I hope the money is worth it, Mrs. Whedon. But somehow I doubt that it is. No amount of money can buy back wasted emotional resources.

Aside from women being fuck toys, property and punching bags for the men, the women have very little importance in the series. I counted the amount of times women talk in the episode Serenity compared to the amount of times men talk. The result was unsurprising. Men: 458 Women: 175. So throughout the first episode men talk more than two and a half times as much as women do. And women talk mainly in questions whereas men talk in statements. Basically, this means that men direct the action and are active participants whereas women are merely observers and facilitators.

Given the fact that women are largely absent from the action and the dialogue of the majority of scenes it is unsurprising that the action onscreen is highly homoerotic. Men jostle with each other for power. Pushing each others buttons, and getting into scuffles. This intense homoeroticism is present from the outset as Mal asserts his rights as alpha male on the ship.

Completely unnecessary and unprovoked violence is a spontaneous result of this hypermasculinised male character. In Serenity, Mal enjoys using a character called Simon as his personal punching bag. In one scene he walks up to him and smashes him in the face, without any provocation or logical reason. In another scene Simon asks Mal a question and Mal smashes him the face again. No reason, no explanation, just violence. Violence is a part of the landscape throughout the whole series and Mal is often the instigator. He is constantly rubbing himself up against other men, and punishing wayward women, proving and solidifying his manliness through bashing the shit out of anyone and everyone.

Zoe, the token black woman, acts as a legitimiser. Her role is to support Mal’s manly obsession with himself by encouraging him, calling him ‘sir’, and even starting the fights for him. Zoe is treated as a piece of meat by both her husband (Wash, another white male) and the Captain. Wash and Mal fight each other for Zoe’s attention and admiration, both relying on her submission to them to get them hard and manly. In fact there is a whole episode, War Stories, devoted to Wash and Mal’s ‘rivalry’. By the word rivalry, I mean violent, homoerotic male/male courtship conducted over the body of a woman.

Zoe is not shown to have a personality of her own. She has no outside interests, no ideas or beliefs, no conversation with anyone other than Wash or Mal. She has no female friends, in fact she tends to dislike women. For example, she is the first one to insult Saffron in the episode Our Mrs. Reynolds, calling her ‘trouble’.

Zoe, of course, is meant to be our empowered, ass-kicking sidechick. Like all sidechicks she is objectified from the get go. Her husband, Wash, talking about how he likes to watch her bathe. Let me just say now that I have never personally known of a healthy relationship between a white man and a woman of colour. I have known a black woman whose white husband would strangle and bash her while her young children watched. My white grandfather liked black women because they were ‘exotic’, and he did not, could not treat women, especially women of colour, like human beings. I grew up watching my great aunts, my aunty and my mother all treated like shit by their white husbands, the men they loved. So you will forgive me for believing that the character, Wash, is a rapist and an abuser, particularly considering that he treats Zoe like an object and possession.

Joss Whedon does not share my view, of course, and he paints the relationship between Zoe and Wash as a perfectly happy, healthy union. If anyone is interested in portrayals of relationships between white men and black women written from black women’s point of view, I would suggest watching Radiance, Rabbit-Proof Fence and Serenades, skip Joss Whedon’s shit.

Also if you are interested in the reality of women in prostitution/prostituted women rather than the candy floss version that Joss Whedon has produced, I highly recommend Rebecca’s story Lie Dead. Skip Joss Whedon’s women-hating bile.

I can assure you that this is just the beginning of my rant on Firefly. There is so much more disturbing stuff later in the series. In particular, an episode called Our Mrs. Reynolds, another episode written by Joss, which completely demonises women as well as pornifying male violence against us.


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[info]dis_senter
2007-12-15 11:03 pm UTC (link)
Very articulately written. You've really untangled the woman-hating mess of this show, not an easy thing to do when there's so many levels of it.

I'm looking forward to the next instalment.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]_allecto_, 2007-12-16 11:25 am UTC

[info]dragort
2007-12-20 01:53 pm UTC (link)
Let me just say now that I have never personally known of a healthy relationship between a white man and a woman of colour.

Like you've personally known of a healthy relationship between a man and a woman?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]_allecto_, 2007-12-23 08:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bookwormsarah, 2008-03-26 01:08 pm UTC

[info]buriedalive.wordpress.com
2007-12-22 08:07 pm UTC (link)
I never got the Buffy=Feminism thing. Joss undoes a feminist message about every 6 seconds.
He's popular because he gives the feminist-lites hope they can still reap patriarchy accolades for being sexyay WHILE saving womyn. Wrong.

Great LJ, btw.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]_allecto_, 2007-12-23 08:38 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]badgerbag, 2008-03-26 04:58 am UTC

[info]bronsonbeta
2007-12-26 06:50 pm UTC (link)
This is a joke, right?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]_allecto_, 2007-12-27 07:19 am UTC

[info]beanheartbatman
2007-12-26 06:52 pm UTC (link)
I'm sorry, I have to disagree. Firstly I think that's the laziest interpretation of Whedon's work I ever read. It reads of a person who refuses to leave their biased nature behind and has watched with a view to hate it regardless of its content. I'm not even sure you watched the whole series properly, or gave it any time.

To go into a rebuttle of your tedious points would take longer than I have. However taking one to emphasise my point; Inara's career as a companion is fraught with problems, as Whedon points out. She is less akin to a prostitue and more akin to a courtesan - a highly educated woman who does sleep with men, but is not simply a walking vagina sold into slavery and raped continously, as you suggest. Whedon is also careful to point out that she has not been sold into sexual slavery. She choses her clients (and whether to accept clients), dines with them, teaches them and companies them to balls. She is given the chance to give up being a companion and refuses. Whedon's depiction of the companion shows that no matter how unionised and careful the women may be, there are always problems (such as the treatment Inara endures at the Ball).

I am however disapointed that you have not bothered to detail the character of Jayne.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]_allecto_, 2007-12-27 07:34 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-12-28 04:59 am UTC
Your next deconstruction? - [info]fiat_knox, 2008-03-26 11:08 am UTC
Re: Your next deconstruction? - [info]silvremeralddas, 2008-03-27 09:41 pm UTC
Re: Your next deconstruction? - [info]_allecto_, 2008-03-27 11:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]queenmother49, 2008-03-26 03:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]_allecto_, 2008-03-27 04:54 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2008-03-28 02:54 pm UTC
Geisha / Prostitution condemnation - (Anonymous), 2008-03-28 06:01 pm UTC

(Anonymous)
2007-12-26 06:58 pm UTC (link)
This is a great post! I'm glad to finally see someone else who feels the same way about Firefly as I do. When I first saw it, I thought it was okay (interesting enough to keep watching basically), but some things about it bothered me. Then I later found out it was supposed to be feminist, and now everything about it bothers me.

Inara was one of the things that bothered me right off and I actually got into an argument with one of friends about her. I was really irritated that the show was clearly setting them up to have some kind of romantic relationship when he was clearly treating her like crap, and I said so. My friend thought it was "cute". So I said, "but he keeps calling her 'whore'", and her response was "but if Inara doesn't mind, it's not a problem". I pointed out that it bothered her enough to have a specific rule against it and to repeatedly ask him to stop. She just shrugged it off and said "it's not really a big deal". Oh, and this was a woman who self-identified as a feminist.

And that would be the point where I stopped discussing Firefly with other people. Pointing out examples of men mistreating women is ineffective against people who think men mistreating women is just fine.

I'm really looking forward to your other rants about Firefly.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]_allecto_, 2007-12-27 07:41 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-12-28 05:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]_allecto_, 2007-12-28 10:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]belenen, 2008-03-26 05:32 pm UTC

[info]mossymermaid
2007-12-26 10:40 pm UTC (link)
This is a very articulate and informed argument, one I am going to say makes me uncomfortable. I have viewed Joss Whedon and Firefly as feminist friendly series, but you raise some damn good questions.

It has thrown the series in a new light, and I shall be re-watching it with this in mind. I look forward to seeing more of your reviews.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]_allecto_, 2007-12-27 07:46 am UTC
Ms Whedon
(Anonymous)
2007-12-27 12:38 am UTC (link)
You might be right that there are some legitimate feminist concerns about Firefly, but unfortunately your tone will put a lot of people off. Including me.

I found your assumptions about and judgements of Joss Whedon's wife particularly offensive:

"Beyond a shadow of a doubt, Joss uses his own wife in this way. Expects her to clean up his emotional messes. Expects her to be there, eternally supportive, eternally subservient and grateful to him in all his manly glory. I hope the money is worth it, Mrs. Whedon. But somehow I doubt that it is. No amount of money can buy back wasted emotional resources."

You are judging a woman you have never met, and accusing her of being with her husband for the money. What a shame - I thought feminist women stuck together and supported each other's choices!

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: Ms Whedon - [info]_allecto_, 2007-12-27 07:59 am UTC
Thanks re: Firefly - (Anonymous), 2007-12-27 04:54 pm UTC
Re: Thanks re: Firefly - [info]_allecto_, 2007-12-27 10:06 pm UTC
Re: Ms Whedon - [info]antigone_ks, 2008-03-24 10:47 pm UTC
Re: Ms Whedon - [info]_allecto_, 2008-03-25 12:15 am UTC
Re: Ms Whedon - [info]kathrynt, 2008-03-26 05:16 pm UTC
Re: Ms Whedon - [info]h3llf1sh, 2008-03-26 06:58 pm UTC
Re: Ms Whedon - [info]cassandrarayne, 2008-03-27 02:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]metaphor, 2008-03-27 03:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]_allecto_, 2008-03-27 11:54 pm UTC
Re: Ms Whedon - [info]dancinguniverse, 2008-03-27 04:13 am UTC
Re: Ms Whedon - [info]_allecto_, 2008-03-27 11:56 pm UTC
Re: Ms Whedon - [info]badgerbag, 2008-03-26 05:05 am UTC

[info]celrya
2007-12-28 03:38 pm UTC (link)
I have the DVD set with all the episodes. One of the disturbing things about it was an audio commentary. I think it was for "War Stories" they have the actor who plays Mal and the actor who plays Walsh talking to each other. They keep talking about how sexy the woman who plays Zoe is, and how lucky her recent husband was to have married her. Actually throughout the whole commentary people talk about Gina's looks as though they're her only attribute - but in this bit they talk about it so blatantly sexually.
N'they call Inara's character a Space Hooker. "Space Hooker" Funny term, Right? Right? They laugh.

Another thing I didn't like was the bit where they introduce Kaylee's character. The bit where she's all "I noticed the problem while I was on my back there" there wasn't no need to sex her up like that. I mean, there's a difference between showing that women can and do have sex drives and weakening the character of a smart girl by showing her having random sex with some guy who is clearly an idiot. They didn't need to do that and I didn't like it.

What else? There's loads... Oh yes. There's that bit where Inara has that governor lady as a client. The audio commentary on that. I don't remember who it was, but when Inara was saying she'd only service a very special woman the commentary person was all "there's Inara playing her games, she doesn't mean it here just like she doesn't with any of her client" or something to that effect, which cheapened the character to me.

(That's ignoring the whole prostitution things.)

As a note: I like firefly. I find so many problems with it, but I still like it. There's not much media about that I read/watch which I don't have problems with.
So much wrong with it though.
>.>
<.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]_allecto_, 2007-12-28 11:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]celrya, 2007-12-29 12:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]_allecto_, 2007-12-29 11:22 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]celrya, 2008-01-10 09:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]_jeremiad, 2008-03-27 09:04 am UTC
Not one rolemodel, but not completely unreal - [info]spockspetchickn, 2008-03-27 01:44 am UTC

(Anonymous)
2008-03-25 10:27 pm UTC (link)
From a black woman's point of view, I would warn you against making such terribly generalized statements. I have been in a happy, loving relationship with my white partner for over two years. I sympathize with your experiences, but you cannot possibly assume that everybody in the world will share these same experiences. To do so is unbelievably racist. I know that past experiences can alter our perceptions of all relationships we witness, but I urge you to give every individual the opportunity to prove themselves to you on their own merits, and not to fall victim to prejudice based solely on race.
Thank you
K

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2008-03-26 03:28 am UTC
Re: Ms Whedon - [info]dreadgeekgrrl, 2008-03-26 09:50 pm UTC
Re: Ms Whedon - [info]demonista, 2008-03-27 09:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]skipmcgee, 2008-03-27 02:52 am UTC

[info]ayelis
2008-03-25 10:39 pm UTC (link)
Hi. I found your essay insightful and very well researched. I have never quite thought about Firefly, Serenity, or Buffy in these ways. Then again, I imagine most viewers today don't put that much thought into the fiction that they watch.

What this makes me feel, is that perhaps Mr. Whedon was not raised in the most peaceful or ideal of environments, and he was attempting to go against the grain to portray a gang of criminals that have certain character traits which a wide variety of today's non-criminal population could identify with. I'm not sure it's exactly fair to assume that Mr. Whedon abuses his wife, just because these criminals he writes about are so verbally (and sometimes physically) abusive to their female acquaintances... Writing impelling fiction that appeals to a prime-time audience without employing some of that kind of drama can be difficult to do, depending on the writer. (Though I'd personally like to see more audience-appealing-yet-empowering sci-fi!) But that Whedon likes women(whom he portrays as calm, clean-handed, and accomodating) more than men(that he portrays as criminals, werewolves, and teenage porn addicts) should be no surprise. I know some women who like women more than men.

Regardless, the characters he writes are still criminals. The way Mal, Jayne, and Zoe deal with the rest of the world (and even among themselves) portrays this. I think the choice of adding a character of Inara's line of work to the main cast was a bold move, for prime-time non-cable-access television. Her character alone could be the reason the show was cancelled. Then again, so could the fact that it was a gang of criminals, or the fact that it was a space opera. I hear space operas (especially of the criminally-oriented, "Stick-it-to-the-Alliance" variety) don't always do so well on prime time.

Wash and Kaylee, in my eyes, are the innocent ones, just along for the ride. And among a gang of mercenaries, you're going to get taken hostage and punched in the face by good guys and bad, a hell of a lot. Personally, I don't see why Kaylee stays aboard Serenity(or Simon for that matter). Sure, when you're unemployed, any job might sound like a good job... For a minute or two. But as you implied, I guess Kaylee(or Simon for that matter) ain't supposed to be the brightest character(s) of the bunch.

Which brings me to River. Apparently 'psychic' in a way far worse than Deanna Troy, River was dragged into the mix by her negligent brother... I wouldn't say that being a Savant is necessarily empowering. Then again, I've never known many (or any) Savants.

Between a situationally-abused 'Companion', a very subordinate first-officer (perhaps subject to unspoken 'racist' undertones, as you say), a soft-spoken machinist, and a girl savant who can't always, if ever, control her every move or even her every thought, I'm not exactly sure just where the feminist message is supposed to come from.

I'm going to go take a closer look at episode 7x22 of Buffy...
-S

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(no subject) - [info]corliss_brian, 2008-03-27 12:57 pm UTC

[info]valarltd
2008-03-25 11:59 pm UTC (link)
The only point I would argue is that "sir" is a legitimate form of address to a superior officer. Zoe obviously adopted the habit while in the military and saw no reason to change it when Mal became captain of a ship.

My biggest problem with the series is that it's Lost Cause romanticizing all over again.
The losers of the Galactic Civil War are the ones telling their story, just as the Confederate PoV dominates discussion of the American Civil War.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2008-03-26 10:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]polymexina, 2008-03-26 12:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]corliss_brian, 2008-03-27 02:44 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2008-03-27 07:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]corliss_brian, 2008-03-27 12:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2008-03-27 06:51 am UTC
Well.
[info]jryson
2008-03-26 02:18 am UTC (link)
I can see your concerns, really.

Still, if I don't like a TV show, I just don't watch it.

(Reply to this)


(Anonymous)
2008-03-26 02:27 am UTC (link)
While I realise you hate my sex, may a gay man comment on what has been a facinating read?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]_allecto_, 2008-03-27 05:33 am UTC

[info]anomiedysthymia
2008-03-26 02:38 am UTC (link)
If a comment from an outsider is of any interest...: I haven't seen the series or related film, but from a number of things you describe, it certainly doesn't sound feminist in the least. I haven't ever seen the show, or the Buffy show, just the Buffy movie. I'd been curious to see the film Serenity because of the high ratings it got, but it being three years old and my still not having seen it says it hasn't been a priority for me.

Have Whedon or others associated with the show claimed it is feminist, or is it just that other people have claimed that about it? It might be interesting to deconstruct one or more instances they identify as ones they feel are feminist.

I was confused by this paragraph: "The first scene opens in a war with Mal and Zoe. Zoe runs around calling Mal ‘sir’ and taking orders off him. I roll my eyes. Not a good start." Don't crew members usually call the captain "Sir" (if he is a man) and take the captain's orders? Or do the male crew members not address Mal as "Sir" and do they disregard his orders? If there is a double standard, I would join you in rolling my eyes. If not, then I'd be looking quizzical. I guess since it's a piece of speculative fiction, they could create a society in which a ship's crew is democratized to the point that there is no captain, no "sir," no orders that need to be made. Is that what you meant?

In the biographical information you shared: "Let me just say now that I have never personally known of a healthy relationship between a white man and a woman of colour." I am very sorry to hear that; the ones you describe sound terrible and I hope are not representative. You mean dating/marital relationships specifically, I guess. I'm sure there are healthy ones, ones without physical violence or fetishes, but in truth I don't happen to personally know of any either (though I know of no unhealthy ones: I know of no such relationships, in short).

Which episode was scripted by a woman? It might be interesting to interview her about it, if she could be found.

Is there feminist Firefly fanfic that purges it of the problems you identify? (That would seem to be relatively impossible without reinventing the characters and series more radically than is customary for fanfic, AFAIK.) Is there a science-fiction television show or movie you would recommend as feminist, or has one yet to be made?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]anomiedysthymia, 2008-03-27 06:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]agilebrit, 2008-03-27 06:50 pm UTC

[info]guest_age
2008-03-26 03:48 am UTC (link)
Please know that while I am a Joss Whedon fan, I am not making this comment as someone who is trying to defend his work. I am making this comment as someone who was raped when she was eight years old by her older brother.

I won't go into the details of what happened to me, but it was violent, it was against my will, and though I tried to stop it, I couldn't. It was the most helpless and, more importantly, hopeless that I have ever felt in my life. I wouldn't wish that feeling on anyone in this world, man, woman, or gender neutral.

What happened to me was rape.

Your definition of rape:

I believe in the radical feminist definition of rape. That is that men who pressure women into sex are rapists. That women who are pressured are not freely consenting and are therefore being raped. There have been a few discussions recently in the rad fem blogosphere debating whether all male initiated sex is rape, given that women are politically, socially and economically subordinate to men. So, in my understanding of Joss Whedon as a rapist is hinges on my definition of rape. I would argue that most 'sex' between men and women, in the contemporary 'sex-positive', pornographic, male-supremacist culture, is rape.


While I respect that you have the right to believe this, I have to say that as someone who was a rape victim, I am offended by it.

There is a very large difference between what happened to me, and the things that happen to other rape victims that are even worse, and "No, honey, not tonight…well, all right." Do you see the difference?

What your definition of rape does is trivialize what happened to me and other victims around the world. If that is rape, then you'd have to invent a whole new word for what happened to me.

I'm not going to try and persuade you to change your mind, because it seems quite clear that you have formed your own opinions and don't intend to change, but as a victim of rape, I am appalled and offended at your definition of rape, and the subsequent trivialization of my experience that it causes.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]faith5by5_1013, 2008-03-28 07:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sparkfrost, 2008-03-28 09:51 pm UTC

[info]tithenai
2008-03-26 06:42 am UTC (link)
I'm curious. Given your definition of all prostitution as rape, and also most heterosexual intercourse as rape -- is a woman who pays another woman for sex raping her, in your view?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]_allecto_, 2008-03-27 07:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]chather, 2008-03-27 06:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]_allecto_, 2008-03-28 08:05 am UTC

(Anonymous)
2008-03-26 08:50 am UTC (link)
What about River? You only breifly mention her once, even though she's sort of the catalyst for the action in the show (and definately the film).

Is there going to be another installment? I'm curious to hear your views about 'Our Mrs. Reynolds'?

(Reply to this)


(Anonymous)
2008-03-26 11:06 am UTC (link)
Or you could just say that Firefly is crap, whichever way you look at it.

(Reply to this)


(Anonymous)
2008-03-26 11:10 am UTC (link)
“Sometimes you just wanna DUCT TAPE HER MOUTH and DUMP HER IN THE HOLD FOR A MONTH.”

This is appalling. I think this calls for a pretty vicious rant and important action alert.

(Reply to this)

and finally (separately)
[info]maggiebloome
2008-03-26 02:06 pm UTC (link)
Okay, now for the iffy topic. Bear with me on this because I don't really feel like I know enough about the issues involved to be very specific and I'd appreciate any fallacies pointed out.

Regarding prostitution, it seems to me that in real life you've got a large pool of women in awful situations being exploited along with a tiny minority of women for whom the work fits in nicely with their worldview and lifestyle, so. On the one hand you can't lump Inara in with the former when she's clearly the latter, but on the other hand the media does GROSSLY over-represent that category of sex-workers, which doesn't do much for the public having a realistic concept of the issues involved.

So what I'm basically saying is, it wasn't the most SENSITIVE portrayal of prostitution, what with all the "whore" comments and whatnot, but I also don't think you're justified in using the words "fucktoy" or "rape" in this instance. I imagine that most prostitutes make a distinction between what they do and rape, otherwise it would be impossible to rape a prostitute, wouldn't it? It would be like... theft. Which it clearly isn't. Inara's ability to choose her partners and the Guild policies on excluding clients (eg Atherton) suggest that her position is more like that of a dance teacher. She's good at it, her clients may or may not be but they come to her in a position of deference and at least outward respect (once again: Atherton), and once there it is a mutual activity even though it is also a transaction. It may be more physical than dancing but if she's that comfortable with her body and sexuality (and some people are, I'm told) then it's her business. Contrast to the girls in House Of Gold who were, now that I think about it, somewhat more realistic as sex workers.

I think Whedon was being waaaay too optimistic/idealistic (for once!) with the idea that the companion/geisha system would be an acceptable system of prostitution. I think that too would be open to abuse, and it's glamourised a bit too much in the show. However House of Gold does show that he's at least aware of the problems surrounding prostitution in the real world. It's certainly an improvement over some TV shows I could think of.

(Reply to this)


[info]piedrablanca
2008-03-26 02:40 pm UTC (link)
You raise some very interesting points.

Out of curiosity, would you be able to recommend any television programs -- not necessarily science fiction, since I imagine it would be difficult to find anything in that genre -- that you feel do promote feminism?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]_allecto_, 2008-03-28 12:46 am UTC

[info]phargle
2008-03-26 03:35 pm UTC (link)
Howdy!

I'm a fan of counter-intuitive thinking, so I was intrigued by your post when I was directed to it by someone who disagrees with your conclusion. What you've presented is obviously well-researched - I was particularly amused by the verbal analysis, which appears to have revealed some subconscious archetyping on the part of the script-writers. You got me thinking: what sort of plot would you find to not be anti-feminist? Every plot of which I can conceive can be construed as hateful to women from the perspective of your blog post:

"Pretty girls fight evil and save the day." -> "Why do female heroes have to be reduced to eye candy?"

"Ugly lesbians fight evil and save the day." -> "Whedon has created his female heroes as carictures of everything men find hateful, and through that correlates the image of strong, heroic women with what men find hateful."

"Neutral-looking women of no apparent sexual orientation fight evil and save the day." -> "The female leads are all stripped of their female characteristics and fade into the scenery, essentially putting them into the kabuki role of female servitude in which they should be neither seen nor heard."

"No women are in the show at all." -> "Buffy presents a world in which women have been wiped out, and the guys run around wisecracking and fighting evil and having a grand old time. They are winking at genocide."

. . . do you see where I'm coming from? As much as I love counter-intuitive thinking, I wonder if your admitted biases have put you in a position where everything is anti-feminist, nothing is pro-feminist, and anti-women subplots can be found lurking behind every bush. If there's a plot that would pass your scrutiny, I'm curious what it would be.

Thank you for your time.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]_allecto_, 2008-03-27 05:57 am UTC

(Deleted post)
(no subject) - [info]_allecto_, 2008-03-27 07:47 am UTC

[info]greektoomey
2008-03-26 05:14 pm UTC (link)
This essay is a brilliant example of the state of feminist thought about 40 years ago, the "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle"1 era. Thank you!


1. Irina Dunn, 1970

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]_allecto_, 2008-03-27 08:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]greektoomey, 2008-03-27 03:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]_allecto_, 2008-03-28 12:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]greektoomey, 2008-03-28 02:55 pm UTC

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