dani ([info]_allecto_) wrote,
@ 2007-10-08 14:52:00
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Thank you Joss Whedon
I would just like to take the time to thank Joss Whedon for his kind post about how terrible the world is. Joss is obviously so very well equipped to speak out against violence against women as his TV shows and movies are just so woman-loving and full of female empowerment.

Like in Buffy the vampire slayer, season 1 episode 3, where there is this really cool witch that steals her own daughter’s body and starts killing cheerleaders so that she herself can be a cheerleader. Because you know, it is every witch’s dream to become a cheerleader. Actually, it is every woman’s dream to become a cheerleader and of course every witch-mother would sell their daughter to the devil to accomplish this dream. I’m glad you showed the witch-mother in a caring and considerate light and didn’t participate in the demonising of witches or mothers or anything. So empowering. Thanks, Joss.

And another episode I love is season 1 episode 4 (you didn’t waste much time in getting to the really hard-core feminism of your show, did you?), where there is a praying mantis woman, who needs young virgin men to fertilise her eggs (before she bites off their heads). Again, I’d like to thank you for refusing to participate in the demonising of women, because you know you could have really gone overboard with the whole dangerous, sexual, older woman predator stereotype in this episode and well, you just didn’t. So empowering. Thanks Joss.

I’d like to thank you for the show in general for not playing into the older man, younger girl romance thing. You know it would have just been terrible if you had had Buffy, a 16 year old, dating a 241 year old vampire or something. Or maybe Giles, the librarian, dating a woman half his age, perhaps? It could have happened, but no. You are far too principled to have that kind of thing happening in your show. So feminist, so empowering. Thanks Joss. Your overt messages of feminist empowerment were not lost on this viewer.

And getting back to what I really wanted to thank you for, that compassionate post about how terrible you think the world is. You write so movingly about how desensitised to violence ‘we’ have become in this day and age. About how awful it is that women are stoned to death and that this is filmed as entertainment. Oh, and while we are on the topic of violence, let me just tell you how glad I am that you never, ever sexualised violence in Buffy the vampire slayer. I’m so glad you consistently put men and women, who were roughly the same physical builds and height together, so there wasn’t that whole domination/submission ideology in the images. I’m so glad Angel doesn’t grab and shake a 16 year old Buffy in season 2 episode 5. I’m so glad Spike and Buffy don’t bash the shit out of each other before fucking in season 6 episode 9. Thank you, thank you, Joss, for being such a feminist.

Again, you write so movingly about how terrible it is that torture-porn is created and consumed by the desensitised public. Thank you so much for bringing this to our attention. Because, you know, what porn isn’t torture for the sexually abused, raped women who are forced to perform it? You can imagine my confusion when in season 1 of Buffy episode 8 you had Xander wearing a t-shirt with the words ‘porn-star’ written on it. Now, someone who didn’t know you might think that you were using your show as an advertisement for the pornographers or something, but not me. No. I know that you were doing a sweet and noble thing by putting a ‘porn-star’ t-shirt on the sex-obsessed, pervert Xander Harris. But, you know, Joss, sometimes you are like God to me and I just can’t understand what you do. But you can do no wrong in my eyes because you say you are a feminist and your word is law, right?

Anyway, moving right along, I have to say that the words of this most compassionate post still linger in my ears.

A few of you may know that I took public exception to the billboard campaign for this film, which showed a concise narrative of the kidnapping, torture and murder of a sexy young woman. I wanted to see if the film was perhaps more substantial (especially given the fact that it was directed by “The Killing Fields” Roland Joffe) than the exploitive ad campaign had painted it. The trailer resembles nothing so much as the CNN story on Dua Khalil. Pretty much all you learn is that Elisha Cuthbert is beautiful, then kidnapped, inventively, repeatedly and horrifically tortured, and that the first thing she screams is “I’m sorry”.

“I’m sorry.”

What is wrong with women?

I mean wrong. Physically. Spiritually. Something unnatural, something destructive, something that needs to be corrected.

How did more than half the people in the world come out incorrectly?


Ah, the love. Can’t you feel it, women? What’s wrong with women? This wonderful man wants to know. A woman was stoned to death by men while men filmed it. What is wrong with women? A woman was tortured by men in a porn movie. What is wrong with women?

You know, Joss, is so right. Women control the media. Women force men to stone them to death and more women force men to film the action. By and large, women write and direct porn movies and force men to commit atrocious acts of violence against us. Why are we so fucked up? Why are women so wrong? Physically, Spiritually, Something unnatural, something destructive, something that needs to be corrected.

Joss, I confess. I am a woman that is wrong, I 'came out incorrectly' and I need your help. I trust you, Joss. I trust all men to help me, especially the ‘fairly evolved’ men who watch that wonderful feminist activism called: Buffy the vampire slayer. I need to be corrected, Joss. All women do. We need men to stop us from falling victim to our own desires to be raped, beaten, killed. After reading this post, Joss, I understand where I have been going wrong. I need to stop blaming men and start blaming myself.

The next time I see that black lesbians are being locked up by men for defending themselves against men the question on my lips will not be: What’s wrong with men? It will be: What is wrong with women? Physically, Spiritually, Something unnatural, something destructive, something that needs to be corrected.

The next time I see that a woman has been slaughtered by her husband and dumped into the boot of a car. I will ask: What is wrong with women? Physically, Spiritually, Something unnatural, something destructive, something that needs to be corrected.

I suggest that all my sisters reading this do the same. We all need to take a good, hard look at ourselves and ask (in the words of the supreme feminist Joss Whedon): What is wrong with women? What’s wrong with us?

Men aren’t the problem. We are.

Thanks, Joss.


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[info]dis_senter
2007-10-08 06:29 am UTC (link)
Oh, this is great. That Joss Whedon post made me so angry.

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[info]_allecto_
2007-10-09 04:03 am UTC (link)
I know. While writing this I just wanted to burst into...

IhateJossWhedonIhateJossWhedonIhateJossWhedonIhateJossWhedonIhateJossWhedonIhateJossWhedonIhateJossWhedonIhateJossWhedon

and

JossWhedonisafuckerJossWhedonisafuckerJossWhedonisafuckerJossWhedonisafuckerJossWhedonisafuckerJossWhedonisafuckerJossWhedonisafuckerJossWhedonisafucker

...but I wasn't sure that it would've really gotten my point across.

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[info]prayingforrain7
2007-10-08 03:59 pm UTC (link)
I was reading the post of his and I felt as though the question that you've cited wasn't so much one that "he" was asking, but a question that was asked by sexist society at large.
Though, lets assume for a moment that it truly is a question that he is posing. If so, he was prompted to ask it by his revulsion at the movie trailer. I couldn't help but think of my asking a similar question about the Iraqis in light of their recent fratricide. My question doesn't mean that I don't hold the United States ultimately responsible for the state of life in Iraq, simply that I don't understand what happened in the history of Iraq that caused so many of them to not recognize who the true oppressor is.

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[info]_allecto_
2007-10-09 03:57 am UTC (link)
Even if you are right (which I doubt very much given Whedon's track record) Joss Whedon has no right to speak out against violence agaisnt women as his shows and movies are just about as misogynist as you can get.

If he had have wanted to talk about male violence against women then why did he (jokingly or otherwise) call women to account and not men?

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[info]dragort
2007-10-20 02:33 pm UTC (link)
His revulsion at the movie trailer should still be directed at the men rather than women. Presumably it was men who wrote/ directed the movie and if it wasn't then the movie was inspired by porn which has always been a male dominated field. And as far as the movie trailer went shouldn't he be more upset by the man torturing the woman than by the fact that she cries "I'm sorry"?

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[info]ah_oh_ka
2007-10-08 05:25 pm UTC (link)
While I don't think anyone who Others women in an attempt to make them appear so eMp0werfulled ::giggle:: is a real feminist (so condescending!), I didn't take the "What is wrong with women?" part the way you did. I think he was rhetorically asking misogynists that question, as though he is unable to understand their theory of mind, because that is distinctly their own world view.

I never liked that show though, so maybe I'm missing some other long-standing Whedon issues. But I do agree with you that he's condescending and Others women, just like every other "empowerful" female lead role that is not just about her being the character but OMG A WOMAN THING who does it!

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[info]_allecto_
2007-10-09 03:59 am UTC (link)
Hmm... perhaps I did misread it. But still I don't trust Joss one little bit. And he shouldn't have written something so open to being misinterpreted.

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[info]ah_oh_ka
2007-10-10 12:23 pm UTC (link)
I agree, he's mostly phony balogna and condescending to women. I want women leads that just ARE the lead by being interesting, complex characters, and that's it--like men get to be. He creeps me out. That's a good point about how easy it is to take his statement the way you did. We don't need any more people positing phrases like that, period! The atmosphere is polluted enough with anti-woman rhetoric.

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[info]dis_senter
2007-10-08 11:10 pm UTC (link)
Also, it reminds me of Michael Moore, another one of those great male 'feminists,' and how he said exactly the same thing in one of the episodes of The Awful Truth. Well, he said, women can vote (yeah, like all women can do that, but anyway), and women make up more than half the population, and women keep voting in oppressive male bastards, so THEREFORE their oppression is their own fault because they're idiots who don't know a dictator when they see one.

Gee, I'm so glad we've got men like that on our side.

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[info]ah_oh_ka
2007-10-09 01:21 am UTC (link)
It's like any guy who isn't a rapist can ordain himself a feminist. Anyone can label themselves anything! It's meaningless. And just having a vagina isn't enough, either. It drives me crazy when men think things they do and say are definitely okay because some other woman reassured him it was, or didn't object, at least. Sakes.

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[info]dis_senter
2007-10-09 05:41 am UTC (link)
Oh, I'm sure there are rapists out there who think they're feminists. That's how screwed up things have gotten.

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[info]eskarne
2007-10-10 07:17 am UTC (link)
I read that post by Whedon's a while ago and thought it was good- I agree with ah_oh_ka's interpretation - but to be fair,I haven't watched a single episode of Buffy - and what you're talking about sounds fucked.
I have watched firefly, which I thought was pretty good, with a good variety of distinct interesting female characters.

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[info]_allecto_
2007-10-11 10:01 am UTC (link)
When I have finished watching firefly and rewatching Serenity I will be writing up a post about how and why I think they are fucked. It's cool if you disagree but from what I have seen of the show so far I am supremely unimpressed.

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[info]eskarne
2007-10-10 07:23 am UTC (link)
Honestly,this does sound pretty feminist to me:

"Somewhere a long time ago a bunch of men got together and said, “If all we do is hunt and gather, let’s make hunting and gathering the awesomest achievement, and let’s make childbirth kinda weak and shameful.” It’s a rather silly simplification, but I believe on a mass, unconscious level, it’s entirely true. How else to explain the fact that cultures who would die to eradicate each other have always agreed on one issue? That every popular religion puts restrictions on women’s behavior that are practically untenable? That the act of being a free, attractive, self-assertive woman is punishable by torture and death? "

and
" And I’m not for a second going down the “women are saints” route – that just leads to more stone-throwing (and occasional Joan-burning). I just think there is the staggering imbalance in the world that we all just take for granted"

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[info]_allecto_
2007-10-11 10:05 am UTC (link)
And I’m not for a second going down the “women are saints” route – that just leads to more stone-throwing (and occasional Joan-burning).

I took this as a dig at feminists.

I still think he had no right to write this post without renouncing his own work as woman-hating and apologising to us for making it.

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[info]eskarne
2007-10-11 07:22 pm UTC (link)
I took that as a reference to patriarchal religion - women as being inherently more pure and spiritual than men, which does indeed lead to witch/Joan-burning

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[info]demonista
2007-10-11 08:05 am UTC (link)
pssst. andrea dworkin and robin morgan liked buffy. i find that interesting.

here's a link:http://www.atpobtvs.com/existentialscoobies/archives/oct03_p03.html. just did a quick google search.

Robin Morgan from MS. on BtVS -- Buffyboy, 15:00:41 10/02/03 Thu

My wife pointed out this column to me from the Fall 2003 edition of MS. Since I don't believe it's been posted here as of yet, here it is. (In case you don't know Robin Morgan is a very well know feminist writer and the author of numerous book. Andrea Dworkin, mentioned in the column, is also a well know feminist writer whom I always thought would love the episodes Surprise/Innocence if she ever saw them-I guess she has. Despite the inaccuracies and debatable interpretations, I'm sure Joss Whedon is very pleased, her remark about BtVS being watched "from our guilty-pleasure closets" not withstanding).

Keywords
Robin Morgan

Separation Anxieties

When MS.' Dynamic new editor in chief convinced me to write this column, I promised us both that I'd remember-to paraphrase our late, beloved Bella Abzug-that, throughout U.S. feminists are "very serious women," nowhere is it written we have to be solemn.

Granted, good news had been so scarce that for one heady week last June I tried recalling how to celebrate: The Supreme Court found for affirmative action (albeit ambivalently) and for lesbigay rights-and Strom Thurmond was formally declared dead.

But then we were back to Bushwackery. So-having bemoaned my once-and-future separation anxieties about the erosion of reproductive right, civil liberties, economic sanity, a free press and so forth-I'm pausing here to suffer withdrawal symptoms over two lesser losses.

"Buffy the Vampire Slayer" has ended its sever-year run.

"The West Wing" is losing its brilliant creator/main writer, Aaron Sorkin.

What am I to do?

"Buffy?!" you frown. Yes, "Buffy"-ostensibly a flighty teenage show that actually seduced hordes of adult fans into watching from our guilty-pleasure closets. (It was Andrea Dworkin who lobbied me to watch "Buffy." And you thought feminist writers met only to argue Profound Insights Into Patriarchy!) What other evening TV show consistently dealt with date rape, gang rape, child abuse, battery, lesbian love, consensual extramarital sex, male impotence, drugs, madness, abuse of power and deep female friendship? Not to mention Biff! Wham! Pow! Delivered by young women who really aced their karate chops; no helpless damsel, Buffy ever rescued male friends.

Sure, the acting was campy, the writing sloppy in its portrayal of Wicca, and the dialogue very, like, um, wow, duh, high school (which was the point.) Yet it was often hilarious in a way idealistic feminists couldn't help but recognize: Buffy's tombstone-during one of her numerous death and resurrection-read "Here Lies Buffy. She Saved the World a Lot." Her relationships with (and soul-saving feminist influence on) her two vampire lovers was "teenage" fare more sophisticated than most adult TV, which currently dumbing even downer with the proliferation of "reality" shows.

Buffy's finale, when her unique fighting spirit and powers were bestowed on all women everywhere, actually lift me misty-eyed. The show lives in rerun afterlife and on video and DVD-but awww, it's just not the same.

É[I'm skipping her discussion of Sorkin and "The West Wing."]É

So back to the barricades. As Jed Bartlet say, "What's next?" They're still comin' at us, straight from the Hellmouth Got your stake? Got your garlic? Biff! Wham! Pow!

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[info]_allecto_
2007-10-11 09:49 am UTC (link)
Enjoying something does not translate to thinking that it is in any way feminist. I enjoy Buffy too. But I still think it is sexist and ethnocentric and I really think Joss Whedon is a prick. And if Robin Morgan and Andrea Dworkin do think that Buffy is feminist... well that is something that I will happily disagree with them about.

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[info]demonista
2007-10-11 02:37 pm UTC (link)
yes, agreed (enjoying it does not equal thinking it's feminist). which is kinda something i'm angry at my pop culture class prof about, she seems to think if women enjoy, oi hai, it's feminist. and the readings she has given us--i could not contain my anger at the rancour against 2nd wave, radical feminists expressed by the authors. i seriously wrote "that's it, fuck you scott" (linda scott was the author) in the margins of one of the pieces.

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[info]eskarne
2007-10-11 07:26 pm UTC (link)
my impressions of Buffy - again, not having seen a single episode of it - but if you have over a hundred episodes of a show, then you're allowed to portray some women as being cruel and fucked-up, because some women are. It's acceptable to me only if the fucked-upness is shown as part of her character, not part of her femaleness. It seems to me that Joss Whedon writes quite fully-fleshed out male and female characters, and therefore has the right to make some of them fucked-up.

I'm not cool with eroticising violence though.

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